Connection Before Correction: Healing After Trauma

OK, so good morning, Maurissa. Morning, Adelina. So happy to have you here and to share you with our listeners. So just to introduce you to those who don't know, this is Maurissa Szilagi. She is a licensed clinical social worker here in the Conejo Valley, really specializing in adoption and foster trauma and working with families with attachment issues. And amongst other things that I think you do and you do really well, you have a master's degree in education as well. And really, you have a lived experience in this area. So you have a lot to share, a lot of knowledge. And we're so grateful that you're here to to share it. And like I was saying to you earlier, part of why we wanted to do this podcast was to share the amazing resources that we have in our colleagues and friends here. And you're one of them. And when we looked at the, you know, the title of our podcast, Look for the Helpers, you immediately came to mind because you are one of those people that we can call. And you are doing this work from your heart. And it's very obvious when you talk about it. So I'm excited to have you here. I'm excited to learn from you, as I always do. So maybe you can just tell us a little bit about your journey, what got you here, and then we can go from there. Oh, my gosh, thank you for the introduction. That's such a special, hearing you talk about me like that is so special because you guys are like my people that I refer people to and always talk about like, oh, your kidney is a higher level of care. Before we go down residential or this, can you go call Adelina and play get engaged because if my children were suffering, that's my first stop. That's where I'm going. And so thank you for like really thinking about me that way. That's really special. And of course, yeah, any time I can get with you, podcast, lunch, whatever I'm going to take advantage of. Yeah, yeah, my journey, you know, you shared that I have the lived experience. I think what makes me as a therapist different from others is that I can connect way deeper with my clients than a lot of people. One, I share my lived experience and I make it very clear to them that I don't in any way put my lived experience on how they're feeling, but I can connect the dots so they don't have to dive into all of the examples that equal why they feel that way. And I feel like a lot of clients, especially teenagers nowadays, feel like most professionals don't get that piece of it. And then when they're telling them these details of, let's say, growing up in foster care, being removed from your parents or not feeling wanted or this like really dark narrative that comes up for a lot of foster adoptive youth of like, I'm not loved. I'm worthy of being thrown away. I'm worthy of being traded or not thought of that narrative. People can hear that and it makes them sad. But when you have the lived experience, there's a different vibe, right? There's a different like, oh, you get it. You feel this pain with me. And I think a lot of my clients, especially the ones, I mean, I have so many who will like never leave my caseload. I've got them when they were teenagers and now they're young adults in college, et cetera. I just actually had another one come back to me. Ironically ran into her at her job. I didn't even know she was back. And, um, and that's how, that's how attachment trauma works, right? Like you, you get to make this ability and open yourself to let those attachments in. And I feel like my goal in life is to really follow my mentor's goal when I was in foster care, who like looked at me and just said, wow, I see so much potential in you. This was not your fault. You are so lovable. Um, and he just really prepared me and filled my cup, right? And, and when he passed away, it became very clear to me that like, oh, man, we don't have Dr. Adam anymore. I need to like fill his shoes. And, um, I feel really special that I get to work with clients where I feel him in the room. I feel him come out of my mouth. Like I say things and I'm like, all right, dude, like, cool. You're still in my message. And that, you know, I grew up with him from 12 to like 22 before he passed away. And I was just enamored with this person who like looked at me and loved me for who I was and made me feel seen, valued and heard, which is like my whole practice principle is that all my clients feel seen, valued and heard for how they're experiencing their experience. And, and I, and I wear that on my sleeve. And, and I think that's what allows a lot of my clients to heal and feel safe to, to share the darkest parts of that narrative, right? Of, I don't feel wanted. Um, cause that narrative is so loud in their head. And it, and it's what makes them have these behaviors that nobody understands, right? Like when we're looking at little children who are adopted, like out of the country or even from birth in the womb, the foundational message to them is, I'm not keeping you. You're not mine. And that energy we're sending them builds, you know, so much hectic, behavioral trauma responses. And then we get these little kiddos and they're colicky and they're not sleeping and they're needing this. And then they're having, you know, outburst behaviors and people around them are looking at them like bad kid, you know, can't, I can't wrangle this kid in. And really it's a trauma response that, you know, just, just gets set up internally. And it's, it's like a loud, I call it like a record player. The volume can go up and down at any point. And most of these little kids, the volume is at like a hundred and how do I help them? Yeah. And it's so unconscious, right? Yeah. And it's often pre-verbal. Yeah. So you can't even explain why you feel this way. It's just an experience. Yeah. And I think that's why, you know, we see when I, when I meet with families and they're like, oh, we adopted them at birth. So we assumed A, B and C wasn't going to happen, right? That they would know they were ours and that we loved them from the, from the get go. And I have to explain that in utero, that parent already told them, I'm not keeping you, you know, like, we have to really dial this down to like the most infantile part of their journey in this life. And we know. To your cells. Yeah. Yeah. To the, to the very makeup of how you were made was probably made not in love, right? And we know from research, right? That like babies who are created not in love, the chaos that ensues in that, you know, rape victims who end up keeping babies, the trauma that happens with that. And, and I think it's just really crucial that parents of children who have been adopted or in foster care really think about that narrative never turns off. I'm 42 and was adopted right before I turned 40. And I still have that narrative. And I'm a clinical person who specializes. You're very knowledge about all this. But it doesn't go away. The volume is not at 100, thankfully, but it's there. And it comes up in my relationships all the time. If, if I message somebody that I feel like it's a close friend and they don't get back to me right away, okay, it gets a ding. It's like a clock, right? It's like a time clock and it gets clocked in. And I feel like people miss out that kiddos who are really early in this journey of discovering what that narrative means, that they're clocking every instance that happens like that and adds up to an exorbitant amount of numbers by the end of the day. And, and what we're seeing in them is the exhaustion of that narrative being so loud. And, and, you know, I really tried to focus on giving those kiddos a validation of, wow, it feels so hard to be in a world where nothing and nobody can fill that void. Nobody can turn that down all the way. It's never going to go to zero. But how do we want that to feel? What do we want to respond to it? You know, how do you, how do you want it to take over basically? Do you feel like it's sort of like a conversation that we have a lot of times around grief, like, like a grief of what is and how it is. And it almost sounds like you're, you're able to sit with people in that without having to just try to change it. Because I imagine like, if you're a parent who has adopted a child, you don't want the child to feel that way. So you may want to change their feeling or convince them that they're loved or rush them through the journey, right? Like, I can't, I don't want you to sit in the fact that you're not loved. We love you, but just because both can be true. Yes. Right. And I feel like sometimes what I see a lot in my work with the parents, because I will never see a child without seeing a parent clinically, that does not work in my practice. Yeah, but especially in this attachment arena, you have to meet with the parents because most of the time what I'm finding is parents think and say, well, I told them I love them, but that might not be their love language. They might need it written. They might need it in, in actions, they might need it in a gift. They might need it in like a, like a hand signal. Like they may not need any verbal praise at all. Like each kid is so different. Each person in the world feels that love so differently. And I think that is also the misstep is like I tell them I love them all day long, but maybe that's not what they want. Maybe that's not filling that cup, right? And I think, I think when I think about like long-term consequences of this battle and this dynamic, this is where like drugs come into the picture because we wanna numb that pain because nobody can fix it. I'm not deserving of anybody helping me fix this. Or like, you know, promiscuous sexual activity. Like we see this a lot in the population I serve of this like risky behavior and wanting to numb. And then getting into relationships that keep filling that narrative, you know? And attracting friends that do that, you know? Like seeking maybe an instant gratification of some kind because it feels so good to that emptiness. But then ultimately leads to feeling really lonely. Yeah, and I'm so concerned with, you know, the current climate of the drug pandemic, especially with the fentanyl crisis and the kiddos I serve because they're not gonna pay attention to what they're taking. They're just looking for that quietness. Like if your volume gets to a hundred, that is like booming in your ears of I am not lovable, I am not wanted. And if you don't have the coping skills and the regulation skills or a safe adult to go to and say, hey, my speaker's at a hundred right now, I need my iPad or I need some AirPods or I need to go on a walk. Not having those conversations with people, it makes it so challenging to like work through different ways to turn down the volume. And I'm so grateful that I have so many clients that like I could just, you know, either I go to their home, I do a lot at home therapy, which I think is also different about my practice, especially with younger kiddos. I think it's important. I could have an office all day long. That's not the point. It takes so much longer in an office to warm up to this like weird clinical feeling. But yet another new place with another new person. Correct. Which is if you go into their home. Correct. There's one piece of that is already there which is their familiar spot. And most of the time the trauma happened in that home. So I'm actually in real time desensitizing the environment, which is also so critical to these kids because they're living in this environment all day long. And if I can work in real time in their environment to turn down the volume, how much quicker do we get the results? How much quicker do we feel safe and stable? And I think, I think- You probably have so much more information when you're in their home. Oh, so much good data. Yeah, because people don't tell you because it's just so like, what is it? The phrase, like a fish doesn't know it lives in water, right? Like sometimes people don't tell you things because they don't even realize it's something to tell you. No, and sometimes I can walk into the home and I can feel palpably that the energy feels conflictual. Like you just walk into their house and you're like something. Yeah, people are walking around. Eggshell's on here. Why? You're more sensitive to that because of your lived experience. Oh, for sure. I've wondered that. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I feel like even on virtual sessions with my clients, they'll hop on the computer and I'll look at their face and I'm like, oh, we're having this mode today. And they'll be like, how did you know that? And I'm like, because I'm just so, I'm so prepared and yeah, tuned for sure. Because you probably had to at a young age be a tune for your own safety. Correct. And so your antennas are probably sharper than a lot of people who maybe didn't have to bear those. Yeah, and then I have to be cautious of if I'm putting my stuff on them. So it's a lot of work on me. Like I tell people, like my husband will say things sometimes like, oh, you see like 10 clients a week. So you work 10 hours. I'm like, oh, bro. Each client is like four to five hours, minimum of processing time before I see them, after I see them, the three a.m. wake up therapist mode that I get. And the weight of, because the thing I love about you, I love a lot of things about you, but one of them is how strongly you feel, how deeply you feel and are committed to not just the people you work with. I've known you for a while. You're just an advocate. Like a real hardcore advocate for vulnerable people. And so I know that you hold it deep in your heart and in your whole body and your whole being. So I imagine it's, yeah, it's really important work and it's got to be, take a toll on you as well. Yeah. Especially given your lived experience. Yes, and especially I feel like whenever the political climate is conflictual, I don't care who you voted for, how you vote, whatever. But right now, palpably, it feels so chaotic in the world. It's just all you see is chaos and scary. My population of families and kiddos are struggling with this energy because they're also overly feeling people, whether they connect with it or not. Like already, no matter what is going on in the world. And so now it's like, I'm feeling everything that's going on and I have to carry that on top of my own internal. And they're not, the words that I'm hearing from most of my clients are, I don't know what's happening, but I feel yucky. I feel horrible. I can't get out of bed. I feel it's debilitating. And so, I've had to up my self-care this year. I've had to start doing like hot yoga and like sweat it out. I exercise every morning or meditate every night. I've had to add things to my plate because I'm taking on all this extra energy plus being in the world and feeling all of the extra energy that's happening. And having your own life. Yes. That's going on as well in the meantime. Yeah. So what do you, okay, this is a question that I get asked a lot. I know you work with kids. We work with kids as well. Not everyone does. No. What's some language that you would use with like a younger kid who's saying, you know, I don't know what I'm feeling but I'm feeling it in my body or, actually that would even be impressive if a kid could say that, right? You would probably get them there. But what's some language just for parents that are trying to understand how to talk about anything that's traumatizing with kids? I feel like before you can even start that conversation, there has to be trust that that conversation is safe. And so I work with a lot of families on just starting to allow kids to have a voice. And this gets very conflictual in a generation gap that's happened in our world. But, you know, I'll have my younger clients, I'll set up scenarios purposefully where they need to check me because I've messed up. Right, so you're giving them a chance to have a voice with you. Correct. And so I become, I started off with, I'm the safe person to check and then I'm gonna pass it on to the other people in your life. I love that. And I've had some of my younger kiddos go, I'm like, I don't care how you say it. I'm your one, I'm giving permission. I'm giving permission for you to call it out and just practice your voice because it's not gonna be perfect until, you know, there's never gonna be perfect but I want you to practice your voice. And how empowering it is to see like a six or a seven-year-old look at me and go, Miss Maurissa, what you just said really hurt my feelings. And to hear me go, I am so proud of you for saying that versus how dare you say that to me. You're not getting offended. And that's how you repair attachment. Correct. And that's how you build trust. And then I have to pass that on to the parent that's more engaged, like that's more active in the therapy. And then I have to give that parent so many tools to go the minute your kid checks you, you are not allowed to be defensive. You have to, the first word is validate. Which is hard because they have to work on their own attachment. Right. Stuff. This becomes such a messy family. It's a family work. It's never a kid at work. And I feel like some of my most successful cases and the stories and the kiddos that I feel like I'm making the most difference with are the ones whose families are so able to let down their guard and hear me say your kid's gonna check you and we want them to check you, especially in the world that they're about to go out into. Right, the, you know, it's a very scary world. And if you can teach a young kiddo to like speak about their body and choice and protect themselves and say when things feel uncomfortable and build that trust, you're gonna be that parent that knows all the things. Like I wanna be the parent that knows all the things. Yeah, I know me too. If somebody bumps into you and they touched your butt, I wanna know about it. Like, you know, I wanna know all the things because the way our kids are growing up, we didn't even, I barely had a cell phone at the age of some kids have right now. And it was the old Nokia with the snake game. And I only really had it for the snake game. I didn't have it for anything else, right? Now our kids have social media and they're getting, there's so many scary things happening with that, right? The sex trade and all the things. And I'm, I as an attachment focused parent and intentionally attachment focused parent, which has also healed. I call them my most expensive therapeutic tool on the planet has healed so much of my attachment trauma to be able to lean into them and give them, you know, what you didn't get. Yeah, and I say it out loud all the time. It's like when my kids were little and I have two boys and they like to be naked all day. And at my home, it wasn't safe to be naked because I was already in an abusive situation. And I knew that. I knew that. I knew your relationship with being naked in your house was not like their relationship with it. No, they're like wild and free and touching themselves and all kinds of things. And I literally have said it out loud so many times, I'm so glad your home feels safe to be naked in. But I'm saying it to little Maurissa. I'm not saying it to them directly. Cause they don't know, I don't have the context. Thank goodness. Thank God. Yeah. I'm so grateful that I'm being very intentional about the people who are around them to, you know, cause my spidey attendants will go off around everybody. You're a mama bear. Yeah. A big time. I've seen you mama bear. Yeah, it's just not okay sometimes. But I feel like my lived experience has made it so that I want them to hear like these amazing sayings because how cool is it for you to know that your home is safe to be naked in? Because as I get older, they're going to hear stories of friends whose homes it wasn't. And I want that to connect for them of like, oh wow, my family made it really safe to be me in that moment. For them to know the difference. I think about that all the time. Like, I mean, knowing the difference between when is safe and when is not is something that I think I didn't learn until way older because no one talked about it. It just wasn't talked about. So when we work with kids, so Blake and I were trained by Violet Oaklander and she talked a lot about, yeah, like your body and the senses and always about safety and attachment. So I knew this before I had kids in concept, but it's so different when you're raising your own little child who on one hand, I want them to be strong and independent and stand up for themselves. But it's also hard to parent that because you also want them to just brush their teeth or that's my big battle is brushing teeth and bath is like this whole thing. Even like last night, well actually the other day, my daughter told me this story about how she stood up for herself. And you can imagine the party I threw in the car. And she was like, mama, you're so dramatic. And I was like, yeah, I am so dramatic about this. Because I didn't learn how to stand up for myself until I was so much older than you. So I'm happy that at seven years old, you're standing up for yourself. I couldn't be happier. And she kind of like rolled her eyes, but in like a with a half smile. She was kind of proud of herself. So then fast forward, this was a few days ago, then last night. We're getting her hair. She has curly hair. It's beautiful, but needs a lot of love. So I'm trying to help her, trying to do this thing. And she goes, mama, I'm standing up for myself now. And I want you to stop with my hair. And I had this moment where I was mid conditioning. I was like, well, I got to finish it. But I noticed myself have to make a choice point, which was she is asserting herself right now and with her body and saying, stop. So I have to allow her. I have to celebrate it just like I celebrated in the car the other day. She's testing you. Yeah, so I was like, okay. Thank you for letting me know. If you want to rinse it out, you can rinse it out. If not, it's okay. And she, it was like, she was not expecting that response. She thought I was going to fight her to, but it was, and I just think about how many opportunities we have like that. That would be so easy to just stay focused on, I got to get that conditioner out of your hair because otherwise it's going to be sticky. But instead, I want her to always remember, like I like it when she stands up for herself. Her mom and her dad want her to stand up for herself. Cause God forbid something happens where she needs to stand up for herself. I want that voice to be like, I can do it. Well, and we only have that voice to do with that if we practice it and it's successfully like supported. It's responded to, right. I mean, the same thing is in my house, you know, I have a three and a half year old. He's like the most feral creature on the planet. And I want to kiss him all day long because you're only so little. So you're trying to soak it up. But because I'm so body positive as well, like that's my mindset of, you know, we're having these creatures go in the world and I don't know who you're going to be within a classroom one day. I want you to be able to stand up for yourself. You know, he'll often say, I don't want to kiss. And I, I'm not going to say, well, I'm your mom. I get to kiss you because I'm teaching him adults to take over your body. So I have a mixed message. It's such a mixed message. And so I have to say to him, all right, thank you for letting me know. Let me know when you want to kiss. And every time he looks at me like, wow, like you see the dots connecting, but on the flip side, you know, sometimes he'll ask me for kisses late at night. And I'm like, bro, I'm saying no, I'm tired. And I'm modeling it back for him at some time. He can do it. And you still love him. Yeah. So I say that I love you, but I'm, I'm tapped out for today. I've had a very long day of training clients and I'm, I need a five minute break and then we can have a kiss. But I do a reciprocal modeling like that on purpose because I want him to also respect other people's boundaries. It's one thing to teach our kids to have a voice and choice and respect boundaries. But the next part of that building that trust is the reciprocal one of me being able to check the client back in a way that feels safe. That's true. And then teaching your parents that, you earn that over time. And you earn that by consistently showing up in a validated, calming, supportive way when somebody puts a boundary down. And I think when we think about kiddos and families and adults, you know, I've recently in the last few years of my practice have gotten adults with such immense attachment trauma. They didn't realize that was what's been happening all their life. It's always the same narrative. I didn't have trust. I didn't have safety. Nobody protected me. And this stems back from everybody's young ages. And I think if I could be modeling that and supporting that and giving them the skills for that, those are people who are gonna get out of this like sticky bubble that happens when we have attachment trauma. You know, the statistics don't look very great for people with foster care adoption histories. When I was a young person in foster care, it was one to 3% of us would graduate college. Now it's three to 5%. Okay. Still very low. Very low. But better. But I mean, this is over like a long time because I was in foster care a long time ago. And even so, like the numbers of just being successful in parenting and not losing your own children to the system are so, the numbers don't- Because it's a cycle. It's a cycle. It's hard to break it. So you know we do reflective parenting at Engage. How many times have I asked when do I get to be a part of that program at some point? It's gonna work out with our work schedules in life. I know. Yeah. And mindful beginnings, which is a new version of it. It's not a new version of it. It's just a new offering, I guess, I should say for us at Engage. But that's what we see. What you just described is a lot of times it's parents come because they're kids in our program. The pre-teen program, the parents are required to do this class. But anyone can do it. And it's interesting what brings people to the class. But I've taught it at schools. I've taught it for years. I've done it as a client. And no matter who you are, it brings up these questions to reflect on about your own childhood as the adult. So it's actually, it's called a parenting class, but it's so much less about the parenting of your child. And it's so much more about how were you parented? Again, whether it was just accidental stuff that happened to you or it was very bad stuff on purpose, either way, people hold it. And we're all children inside. We're adults that grew up, big adult, big children that end up being adults. And then we have kids. And to your point, we can cycle through and say, I'm gonna do exactly the opposite of what was done to me. Which sometimes in some ways can be healing and good, right? But also sometimes it can create a whole new set of issues that's so opposite. Or we say, I'm gonna do exactly what was done for me because either there's a belief that that worked or that's all I know. But just to slow down enough to think about it, we've seen parents just have, and myself included by the way, have these light bulb moments that are such a gift to our children. Because if I am more aware of my attachment and my stuff, then I can show up for my kids in the way I want to. However, whatever that looks like, and it may be different. And I'm not saying it's easy because I still have moments where I'm like, I know better. What am I doing? I know better than to lose it over brushing teeth is my big trigger. I don't know what it is about that. But it's interesting how I can slow down more because I understand that something comes up in me that has nothing to do with my child. Right, it's what happened to you, to little Adelina and little Maurissa. And I speak about this a lot with, my practice has been growing in so many different ways around attachment that I never was even thinking about. I was like, I'm just gonna be the foster adopter because there's so many of those. Yeah, but those two go together. Yeah, and lately I've been getting a lot more court cases over the last few years and reunification issues and kids who post-divorce don't wanna go with another parent and the other parents struggling and going, we all lived in the same house. I don't think I did anything exorbitantly bad. Why are they now refusing to see me and why now do I have to give them that time? Why can't I just force the visits? Why can't I just force them in my car and take them? And it's the same problem. Yeah. It's the same dynamic happening is that parent is struggling with maybe you thought you did your best, but your best did not attach to your child in a way that felt healthy for them. And that took how many years of their life to form. It doesn't go away in two seconds just because we're separated from each other or just because we have a divorce, right? Like, I think what I'm seeing historically happening with these kinds of families too is this like, I need to have my kids back because I need it. And it's this, that's the little you going, I didn't get what I needed and I wanted. I want my love that I think I'm getting from them or that I think I'll get from them. And what we're really doing is saying, what happened in my childhood that I didn't feel that love and I didn't feel that support and how did that come off to my children? And why are my children so scared and refusing? What happened in that dynamic? Because I think, to your point, like, why am I losing it over brushing teeth? It's probably not about the brushing teeth. It's the feeling that comes up behind it. My kids refusing to keep their body healthy and safe. Body healthy and safety is probably very important to you as a core family, like a core parental dynamic. I see that same thing happening with listening and falling through with directions. Parents want your kids to do it right then and then. Well, sure, because also we're tired and it's the end of the day, I wanna go to sleep. I think what happens to me is, cause she, again, has a strong voice and I love that so much about her. I really, really do. But if I would have spoken to my parents that way, it would have been unacceptable. So I think that's what comes up for me, is that I get conflicted in those moments where I love that voice, but there's this little Adelina that's like, oh no, no, no, no, you can't. There's something about that that is triggering to me about being yelled at. And so yeah, you're right. It's totally not about the brushing teeth. No, part of it is I'm trying to help you and you're not letting me help you and there's something about that for me too. And I don't want you to have cavities and a bunch of dental work because that hurts and that's painful and I'm trying to avoid A, B, and C, but sometimes for our kids, as you know best, natural consequences of that behavior. Sometimes the dentist needs to look at her teeth and go, I can tell you're not letting mommy and daddy help you because you're missing some plaque because that's what happened with my oldest, the dentist went, is mom helping you? No, mom needs to do a checkup every other day, just a quick rinse through, you know? And he was like, every other day, now he goes, mom, the dentist said you have to, right? So like, it doesn't have to come from me, it has to come from the expert in that. And you know, I'm only the expert in one thing according to them. But I think it comes back to what you were saying about so much of it is our own need, like our own need for whatever. And that's attachment in general, right? Like if I'm connecting with humans, it's a selfish unilateral need normally, like I have to fill this void or this cup. And what we see with people with attachment trauma is that's so disconnected. One day, one woman I need you, one no moment, I don't. And that gets confusing for people who are working. Yeah, yeah, cause it's a miss signal. It's like, one day they want me to hug them and the next day I try to hug them and they swap me away. I don't know how to do it that you lean in and you go, I'm noticing you don't want to hug today. What else could I be doing to connect with you today? If hug didn't work, what do you need, right? And we ask those probing questions and we support that ability to engage a conversation, right? But I think that's what we see with attachment kiddos all the time is just like, you never know what's gonna set them off. And that, you know, that lends into the other work that I've been doing in our county in the last few years when you speak about advocacy is, you know, I work, I have like a little contract with the Department of Ed out here in Ventura County and I do trauma trainings for educators and counselors in the school districts. That's so needed. Oh, and it's so filling this like, this deep desire to do macro work as a working mom because I can only, I would love to say I'm gonna go take over DCFS because that was always my dream and it may happen in my fifties but not as a mom to young kids. I just can't, attachment wise, I would not heal. You needed to take care of your own kids. Yeah, but this is like filling this like little void to on a bigger level give information to people who work with our children all day about trauma and how it affects people. And I often let them know that like thanks to the body keeps a score and books like that about like what we're seeing happen in this kid is not that they're just bad kids. It sounds not personal. It's not even about you. They don't even know it's gonna happen. You know, when I call it like a pop-off in the classroom, it's their amygdala going, hey, I smell to smell today's the anniversary of when I was removed and I don't even know it. There's something happening that is beyond you. And when you personalize it and you go, this kid's attacking me, then you make it a battle. But if you could go, what happened? What is happening? Not what's wrong with you? Why are you bad? Why are you not listening? But what happened to you? We can build, that's how we build that curiosity and trust because the kid doesn't even know what's happening like in a classroom like that when they pop off. They're thinking of the scary thoughts. The same thing with like ice deportations lately and all of these things, they're all the same attachment wound. We've lost somebody that was once here without any explanation. It made a sense of safety. That's the core of attachment. So I'm really glad you're doing that work. It's so amazing. I've gone into some schools and done similar things and I'm curious what your experience has been about the reception of that. How do you feel like the education world receives that information? I feel like, and this has been an ever-changing work with them, we're now revamping the whole training because the work that I'm doing with them used to be with like a person leading the presentation and a kid with lived experience. It was only about foster and homeless youth at the time. And because I have lived experience, I've kind of done both voids, but because I'm a clinician by trade, I'm able to go in these training rooms and be in the moment with each person. And that has been pivotal because most of the time they have said prior to a clinical person doing this training is that it felt very like a lecture. I don't do it that way. I look at your face and I'm like, oh, are you feeling something about this video we just played? Tell me more about what's happening. And I'm able to like sit in the room and ask about the pain points and honestly validate like since COVID, I don't know how educators are even. So I do a lot of- So much is asked of them. And I do a lot of validation and empathy as both the mom who's grateful for my kid being at a school that feels super successful to him, but also knowing that I can walk into the campus and know that anytime I'm at a training, I can feel it. It is so heavy in these classrooms and with these counselors. And I think I've gotten nothing but warm receptions. I've gotten people going, thank you so much. I had one training in the beginning of this year where the clinician was like, you know, Johnny for instance. We don't talk about names of course, but you know, Johnny just sat in my office for an hour and I don't know how to answer the box questions because they have logistical things they have to answer, right? As a private practice clinician, my notes are whatever I want them to be kind of. And I said, well, you just validated and made it safe for that kiddo to be quiet for an hour. I think you did a way above your job. And she looked at me and she was like, come to mind because it's not a box that says validation equals making it safe to be quiet for an hour. I mean, how important for Johnny who has huge trauma space to stay in your office for an hour with an adult that they trust that they were safe. Right, and be silent because trauma brains do not like silence because during silence it is really, you can hear all the things. You can hear all the things that, you know that your brain can say and it's normally not kind. Like my brain is known to tell me some really unkind things. And I have to be very clear of my signals. Like if I'm getting irritable, am I ignoring what my brain is saying? Am I trying to? I'm trying to ignore it, it's not working. And I think that's what's happening for some kiddos when they're able to be quiet and be safe. That counselor, I believe she's sort of tiered up because she didn't realize she was actually, she's like, I'm not doing anything. I did nothing. I know, that's what a lot of people think when they work with kids. Because there's such a nuance to working with kids. Totally. That it feels like, you know, with an adult, adults can give you that feedback pretty much right away. Or sometimes they don't. Most of them I don't. Most of them I don't. But most of the time they can, even if they don't, they have the ability to. But kids don't and nor do they need to give us that feedback or validation back. So yeah, I hear that a lot too. And I remember being a new therapist thinking like, well, what did I even do right now? And then I had my mentor saying exactly that. So now it's very obvious. That's a huge piece. And I know there's a lot of statistics about that it just takes one adult and you share to your story. It just takes one adult to see you and believe in you to really ignite the idea that I can believe in my, there's something to believe in here. Right. And that adult can change over time. Like I feel like the other issue here, especially with the foster adopt population is they move around all the time. So I have so many adults in these trainings or so many adults, parents in my practice that go, you know, their life isn't stable. It's always in transition. And I feel like I'm constantly reminding them that the mentor can change over time. It's just one person showing up in those pivotal moments. And what happens is if you can build trust with a child and teach them that mentors can be a safe person, they might be open to the next person that comes. Well, in fact, isn't that even in some ways, that's the hope that you can have, you can form an attachment with multiple people. But again, you have to attach to the right people, people who are consistent and are able to care for you. Right, because the problem I think I think I've seen and I don't have as much experience as you is attaching to dangerous people or attaching to toxic people or people that are gonna flare up that narrative and you have no idea why you're so spirally in the moment. And that's where we see that it's harder, right? Because now we're not repairing anything. We're actually just going deeper. And that's where my favorite acronym comes up of trauma plus transition equals shit show, right? Because we're like, that's what I say all the time in all of these trainings. And I'm often going, these teachers like this acronym, but I say it because it's gonna stick with you. They'll remember it, yeah. Because anytime you have somebody with trauma and there's a transition, it could be a good one. It could be going to Disneyland. It could be going to Paris. It could be going to shop. But it's newness, it's different chain, your system feels it, your nervous system. People with trauma, especially attachment trauma, thrive off of Groundhog's Day. They would have the easiest life if nothing changed. Give me predictability. Oh my God, I would be so much calmer in life if my days were predictable. But every day I'll be like, oh, it looks like an easy day. And then I get blasted by calls and text message and emails. And it's like, all right, you gotta pivot. And that's where upping your self-care. That's another thing I talk a lot about with my clients and any families is, when I first became a mom, I thought it was really selfish to do anything for me. I was the sacrificing mom. I was the giving tree book. And I was like, you're supposed to be the giving tree book. And then it was funny when my time hop a couple of days ago posted this thing I put on my story many years ago that the giving tree's last page changed. And then the giving tree had boundaries and said, no, I'm not giving you my brunch. And I was like, and this is what you actually have to do as a parent. You have to model the boundary. You have to model the self-care. And I work out every morning religiously in my living room while my kids are watching morning TV. And I do it on purpose, because I want them to see you taking care of yourself. And now my three-year-old every morning stretches and goes on the mat and practices mommy's workouts. Because you're modeling, right? You're not telling them to do it. You're doing it. Yeah, and kids watch everything you're doing. Like you'll know you're- The veteran for worse, they watch everything. Especially if you're a door slammer and your kids start slamming doors, you can't get mad at them for slamming doors when you just modeled the slamming of the door. It's that thing. And so I highlight all the time that like, I know how it feels to be a parent and think like, oh my God, I cannot go to the gym. I cannot work out. I cannot read this book. I cannot go hang out with mom friends. None of that works because I have to sacrifice myself for everybody. Because that's what, ingrainedly is in a DNA of a parent, typically. And how important it is that we are, you know, having a baseline maintenance self-care. And then when the world feels crazier and your job feels heavier, being able to up that self-care. Like I've had to pivot over the last few months. I've had to start reading different kinds of literature every morning to get my mind in a calmer space. Cause I am just ingesting so much trauma. Yeah, I mean, just before you walked in, I was like doing the thing that one does, which is like just killing time and scrolling on my social media. And it was terrible. It was terrible. I just watched and read so much trauma. And then you walked in and then it's like, I have to just be like, oh, okay, here I am now. And I'm shifting. But that's so confusing for the brain and how hard that is for us as adults. Now take it to kids trying to manage that. And I often have to have the conversation with parents of like, you're expecting something from a kid whose brain can't even perform that task. That's the other challenge we have with trauma. Already your brain is a little bit, we know from research that your brain looks different when you have trauma, especially complex like PTSD type trauma that a lot of foster and adoptive kiddos have, especially if in utero you were, there was a substance involved. Forget it, like your brain makeup is different. To expect them to be like everyone else, which that's not even a thing anymore. What does that even mean? Yeah, because I have that all the time. They don't act like everybody else. Okay, well, I hang out with like 30 different kids and not one of them acts the same as the other. So I don't know what that means anymore. But why are we making them do something that their brain is not letting them do? That's like taking, trying to take, I don't know, a sticky dart and throw it on the wall and go, why is it not sticking? Well, cause you don't have the right wall. It doesn't work. And I think a lot of parents have a hard time going, well, their older brother did it or their older sister did it or whatever. And it's like- But temperament, that's another thing that we talk about in reflective parenting is temperament. Oh yeah. And what I remember learning about this, again, before I had kids and how it was taught to me was that it's like ingredients in a pie. And once the pie is baked, you can't unbake that pie. You can't take an apple pie and separate the apples from the wheat, from the sugar, from the butter. It's an apple pie. However, whatever it's gonna look like now, it can change. We can add toppings to it. We can cut it in different ways, different slices, but we cannot take all those ingredients and separate them anymore. They're baked in. And that was really interesting for me to learn as a professional without kids. Then I had kids and I was like, oh my gosh, that pie analogy totally has a different meaning to me now. And I get it. Totally stealing that by the way, because that's such a good analogy. Yeah, it's a great- Because visually, you know the ingredients, but it'll never be a stick of butter again. It's just, once it bakes, it's its own thing. So I do think that's hard though for people because you have these fantasies of who you want your kids to be. Of course. And I think that's normal. You have these ideas when it's a baby or even if you're adopting a baby or not a baby, a child. You have these fantasies of like, okay, we're gonna live this life and you're gonna be this way and you're gonna like baseball or you're gonna like the things that I... And then they don't. And then we have to readjust. Or even in sibling sets. I mean, I have two very different children. I have a neuro spicy and the most feral creature I've ever met. I expected two of the neuro spicy because he was my first. That's all I knew. Yeah, that's what I know. It's the same mean husband. It's the same people making the same babies. We're gonna have the same kids and I look at them all the time and the same parenting style doesn't work for them, right? And that's the other thing. When I'm working with families, a lot of times they have biological children and foster adopt children in their home and having to pivot your hat over and over again. It's hard. For any amount of kids, it's hard, but when you have different versions of children in your home, it really is a struggle to go, who am I talking to? How am I supposed to connect? What does this person need? Correct. And how can I... But then you have to be so on top of your own stuff because otherwise I feel like you're just spewing and throwing out what you think they would need. Yeah, and then that's where lots of repair comes in, right? Because there's no perfect person. And I tell this to a lot of people in trainings and a lot of families is make the car ride the safe place to be your apology tour. That's what I call it. I'm often known to be driving somewhere with my kids and going, I'm sorry for three weeks ago, because I've been thinking about three weeks ago, because that's what I do as a mom. And I said something I didn't like. And one of my neural spicy son will go, yeah, mom, I've been thinking about that too for three weeks, thanks for saying sorry. And you need to say sorry this way. Like it's gotta be specific. He's gonna correct you. Right, and then the fair alone would go, yeah, I'm sorry too. And I'm like, you didn't do anything, bro. And I have to constantly tell him like you're saying sorry because you think that's what you need to say, but what I want you to hear is mommy saying sorry. And I just want you to sit with that. And you could see his uncomfortability going, he knows he had a part in that. You were obviously enjoying the crap out of me. And I snapped at you, but like I need to be, I always say like, I'm sorry I raised my voice. I need to check my own voice. It has your behavior is your behavior, but I can change how I speak about that behavior. And I think that language, and as a therapist I tell people, there's never such thing as over repairing a situation. I don't know how many adults you've ever seen who go, if only my grandmother could have said sorry for this, grandma's no longer here. And they're like, man, if grandma could say sorry about this, I'd feel so much better. People remember the repairs. Because I've seen that in my work so often, like in family therapy, I see kids who come to program. I will never forget there was a young adult that was so mad at his mom because he said, my whole childhood you were just cleaning. You just cleaned all the time. And you didn't play with me. And I remember being pregnant and being like, that could be me very easily. Cause I love to clean and I prioritize a clean space that makes me feel contained. Same. And so I just remember, I still, this was like 10 years ago. And I remember that so clearly. And you're right, but the mom was able to say, I am so sorry for that. I can see how you had that experience. Mine was very different. And I'm happy to tell you about it. She was so beautiful about it. She was like, I'm happy to tell you about my experience, but what's more important is that you just told me yours. And I remember just being like, yay, good job. But I too, so because of that, because I've seen so many examples in my office of kids really valuing their parents taking accountability. So that has really shifted me. And it's so fascinating because if you ask my husband, I am, it's really hard for me to apologize. Like it's just really hard for me. But when it comes to my kids, I am like the queen of accountability. And you're like, you say with the car. And when I'm in the car, I'm always like, you know what? Here's what I did. Here's why I didn't like it. Here's what I should have done. I'm sorry. And you know, my daughter's actually very forgiving. She'll be like, mom, it's fine. Like, what do you mean? But it doesn't matter. I say it does. I'm still gonna tell you because it matters. It matters, yeah. And it matters that you know that I've been thinking about it and it's not okay with me. So it's interesting how for my kids, I have no problem. But there's some other ego that happens to me like in my relationship with my spouse that is harder for me. I still am working on it and I still do it. I'm better at it, but it's not, it doesn't come as easily. And it doesn't come off as gentle either. Like when we're apologizing- Normally I'll apologize to my spouse and it'll be in a text. I'm sorry that I yelled at you, but it's not gonna be like, it's no honey. I'm so sorry like I do for my children. And I level or giving them their love language about it. That's not gonna happen. Because I think for my kids, I feel a responsibility to teach. I know that my husband is really awesome at doing this. I know he's my secure base. So I don't need to teach him anything. You know what I mean? But for my kids, it feels like it's coming from a different place. And I think because of what I've seen in my work. Right. Truly. That's what I think is a big piece of it. Well, and also what we've seen in our work, you know, I pre, like pre-second child, I was, I had a lot of the most angry teenagers in our, in our county, like in my office. I was super pregnant with her second. And I would have my office mates text me often, are you okay? Because you've been yelling. And because I made it safe for them to be angry because most of them would say, I can't be in the car with her. The minute I'm in the car with her, she lectures me and punishes me and grounds me. And I want to jump out of the car. So I've heard that so often. And even as a kid, when I, when I was still living with biological parents, I remember the car being, I'm trapped in this box. And now you want to attack me and catch me off guard. And so I tell a lot of parents, make the car the safe place to have deep conversations. Because once you make it that place of punishment, you're making it unbearable for them to even, like the trigger is the car. And if you're in the car all day, going to school, going to sports, going to this, whatever, you've just lost some ability to connect with them. Like if you're working all day, the car is your time to like connect. It's a 20 minute drive, whatever. And I really have tried to make the car the place where they get to pick the songs, even though I don't want to hear. I'm so sick of the K-pop Demon Hunter playlist. I love you K-pop Demon Hunters, by the way. I don't think I hate you, but the playlist is driving me insane. And, but I let them pick, I let them have free choice in the car because I want them to know the car is their place to have free choice of communication, right? And so if I build that with songs and music and whatever choice, I know it's going to play into other things. And I, we hear it all the time from kids and teenagers. I mean, I'm going to be troubled. I hear it too, yeah. Like we, I've been in family sessions where kids will say, well, everything's fine here because we're in your office, but the moment we get in the car, you know, or like I'm not going to talk about that because then I'm going to hear about it on the car ride home. So, ah, you're right. That's, it's a big, it's like, it's interesting. These nuggets that we get, I feel privileged to know it before being a parent. You know, there's so much still for me and probably for you to work on and learn. And our kids are going to grow up and be on a podcast one day and say all the things that we did to mess them up because that's just how it is, right? We just are doing our best. And I always say that there's grace for people just trying to do their best. And I'm just grateful for you and your work that you do because it's true. When I have a difficult situation with the family, I know like, I know who's going to be able to help with this. I know who's not going to be intimidated by those, you know, screaming and- How many cases have you shared that the clients were like? Really difficult. Really challenging and going through a lot of trauma and having colleagues that you can share those cases with. One, we don't feel alone and isolatory, which happens a lot in our work, especially if you're a private practice owner I don't have people I come into office with, you know? Well, that's what I was going to mention, actually, when you were talking about self-care because I'm not the best at self-care. Admittedly, I tend to white-knuckle through things and then it hits me hard. And usually it's my body that tells me, you need to slow down. But one thing I have learned is that community is a way I can lean into self-care. When I tap into my community and you're one of them, when you just message me and just say hi, yeah, I'm thinking of you, you don't even know what it does to me. Like it just, it makes me, that is a reminder that you're not alone in this. And then it helps me to lean into the community that is around me and beautiful and awesome and truly why we even wanted to do this podcast is because it comes from a place of, I have such gratitude for the people, the colleagues and friends, colleagues that have turned into friends and friends that have turned into colleagues. It is part of, at least for me, a self-care that I think doesn't feel selfish to me, like connecting with you is totally selfish. It gives me, it fills my cup up, but it also doesn't feel, I feel somehow like I can do it and not feel the guilt and shame we're trying to feel when we do that, right? When I talk about attachment trauma too, especially for me, I feel so selfish. My brain will tell me so much guilt and shameful statements when I'm being needy or wanting to be needy or feeling needy or feeling vulnerable. Or having needs, can we say, instead of being needy? Yeah, having needs. Let's make a positive reflection of that. But I'm often reaching out to people like you, there's other colleagues that I text, I'll just text them randomly and be like, just miss you, that's all. And they'll be like, oh my God, you sent that at just the right moment. Did you know that I was needing that moment? I sent it because I needed it in that moment, right? You never realize that when you're needing something, the person you're reaching out to is also needing it. And so that's not selfish anymore, that's collaborative, that's building the community. And I think what I'm seeing, especially in all the therapists, Facebook groups, I'm sure you're in all of them too, it's like everybody feels so alone and isolated, like how lucky we are that this community does do like a bunch of therapist networking events and a bunch of collaborative opportunities and I know so many therapists who like, oh, I'm on this case, but I need you on it selfishly for my own, so that we can work together. Yeah, so I can see you more often because we're so busy and we can't connect. But, and the other part is, I know we're gonna work so well together, this family's gonna get like a wraparound approach that is so necessary for so many families and not everybody wants to do that and how great we are for that. I know, it's true, I wish everybody wanted to do that because the people who benefit are, when the clients like the kids and the parents, but also us as clinicians, like I can do a better job, I feel that we have done a better job when we share a client with like, let's say you and we're talking all the time and we're saying a consistent message to both parents and kids, I feel good about that because we did that person of service by referring to a really good clinician and then staying in touch with that clinician, you know? Because how many times do the other part of that happens? Like how many times are parents seeing a parenting coach and the kids are seeing somebody else and they're not talking and they're giving completely different resources and supportive responses? Not that one's wrong or right, but if you're not collaborating with the other clinicians, I have so many cases with so many different clinicians and I've always said like, I know you feel uncomfortable with me talking to A, B and C, but if I don't and we're not all on the same page, this is not gonna be successful. It's gonna take longer if it's even gonna get to a place of feeling, you know, containing, but also, yeah, it can be so confusing and we try to be really mindful of people's resources as well. Like we want you to get efficient care and if you're like, let's say in our IOP, there's a family in our IOP, we want the time that they're here to be efficient, we want them to get well and then not have to be in IOP anymore. Yeah, because they'll be here forever. Yeah, so it's sort of about that too. It's about setting everything up so that then we can confidently, after we're done with the care at that level, we can confidently know that you're in good hands. You got your psychiatrist is handling the meds, you got your therapist that's gonna continue with the treatment plan we've been working on, you're gonna keep working in this outpatient group to have community and that thing feels better than setting someone up for success in that way and then sometimes things happen and stressors come in that we weren't expecting but sometimes that's enough to set people to launch and go back to their life, whatever that was, soccer practice or dance or whatever. Or at least have a foundation to rebuild that process, to know that, okay, we've gotten through a few things, what's next on the horizon? I think sometimes especially when we look at attachment trauma, especially complex attachment trauma and issues, it's actually a long journey to heal that because it started way too long and a lot of people struggle with the fact that when it's an attachment wound, it is so stuck in so many spots and so many parts of your body that it doesn't just go away. It's gonna show up again but if you have the tools and you have the resources you're already locked in and you're gonna get through those, okay, there's maybe some bumper lanes, you know? But you'll still have the struggles, we always say that too, that we treat depression and anxiety but we're not saying you come to our program and you're depression, you're anxiety, they're gonna be gone but we hope that they'll be more managed so that then you can go out in the world and manage them and continue to work, like you said, probably for some people it's lifelong for some people it's not, it just really depends on the situation, the system having a good support, the whole system, not just the identified patient that right in our care oftentimes, that's why I love what you said that you don't see a kid without their parents. When I get a call about anyone that's a child, I always say that, I say do not, whoever you end up seeing, do not see a therapist that is gonna see you without also including, sorry, see your child without also including the parents because that's not complete. And that's how I was trained, Violet always said that, like it's all related and if it's a child, the parents need support just as much as the child and they need to learn the skills the same way and so I am weary of that, like if someone comes to me and says well I never even knew what they were doing in therapy, I'm like yeah, that's something to consider, right? You should know, not that you need to know the content, necessarily, you need to know how to keep those skills building in your home. Like we were talking about in the car or in the shower, like whatever time you have with your kid, ideally you're continuing to work your therapist as it's starting. It doesn't matter about like the stories they told your therapist, it's about what are the skills you're working on so we can keep working on them. Cause once a week therapy is just once a week therapy, that's an hour, 50 minutes, I mean, depending on the therapy kids, the attention span in a 50 minute session is not 50 minutes. No, no. So you're getting bits and pieces that you're coming in and out of contact and I think adjusting parents' expectations of that is really an important piece too because I understand, parents just want it to be fixed. For sure. They just want it to stop, the behavior to stop and I think so much of it is educating parents and it's not that simple, it will take, like what you said, just how it took time to learn this, it will take time to unlearn this. Well, and just how it took time for the trauma to finally resonate for them as a trauma or for them to feel safe enough to call it what it is or show you or behavior or behaviorally to come out. You know, what I love about the book, The Body Keeps the Score, I like say it all day every day and I say that because it highlights so truthfully how things just live in spots in our body and that randomly they just get triggered because your amygdala's on protection and if your amygdala smells the smell of your perpetrator, let's say, or you drive past, let's say you got into a car accident on a certain street, by a certain car and you're on that street and that same kind of car is next to you, you're gonna have a panic response a little bit, right? You're gonna have sweaty palms, maybe like, I always tell kids like you might feel like you have to fart, like gassy, and I think when we think about how trauma just like sticks in the body, it sticks there for a reason and it doesn't ever go away. We can learn ways for it not to completely make our world disastrous, but it's always going to be there and our amygdala in our brain is always going to alert us when it feels like we're- Was it protecting us? Yes, yeah. And if you can, this is another thing I learned from Violet is, you know, building a relationship with that part of you, like it's a good, it's gestalt, right? Gestalt work is the different parts. So the part of your brain that's protecting you is there to protect you and you don't have to love it all the time. You can be mad at it for, you know, I don't need protection right now, but you also can understand that there's a part of it that is really loving and it's trying to help you. And that changes your experience of your heart racing or your stomach hurting. It doesn't feel like, cause I've had kids say, I feel like my body is against me. Fair sentence. Cause it doesn't feel like your body is against you. It feels like it's betraying you. But what if it is both? It's betraying you in this moment cause you're actually safe. There was a time where it was really wanting to protect you. It's doing its job. Yeah, and for many of my clients, this is where the gift of longevity is helpful. I know you. For many of them, we're able to start like on a calendar, finding these like peak moments when they're feeling like that. You know, if for some of my clients, they have peak periods of the year that they're gonna be extra, I call it spicy, but extra known to be triggered, right? And when we start mapping that out, we can be preventative about that. And I can teach them that. Like I'm teaching them the skill to know like, hey, Maurissa knows every year around Martin Luther King weekend, I'm not gonna sleep well cause I was in the Northridge earthquake like 30 plus years ago. And that was terrifying for me cause I lived in Northridge and it was just, it was the start of a lot of trauma for me or a start of a lot of realization of trauma that had been happening, but it connected some dots. And my body keeps the score. Will let me know the weekend of Martin Luther King day cause I don't sleep well. And that's amazing that your body does that. And I know that as a therapist, what it's doing, right? I say it in every training I do with the department that like, this is why trauma is such an individualistic definition. It doesn't, you and I could both gone through the earthquake, we could have lived in the same house but it affected me in one way. It's gonna affect you and your body in my body. Yeah, and it'll affect you in a different way. And I just, I plan ahead that weekend that I don't do a lot because I know I'm not gonna sleep well because my brain, it happened in the middle of the night. It was like, like 2 a.m. or something. And my body just like is ready. You're like ready for it. Where's the, and the amygdala does not turn off. I call it the jerk of the brain. It's job is to just alert me at all times when the sensors go off. And I have a pretty like, I have an amygdala that likes to shoot off all day. And that can feel exhausting. And that's where the self care again comes in and knowing what you need. Like I need exercise, some people need reading books, some people need music, some people need drawing, whatever it is, cultivating that ability for them to find the things that will work for the body. Like, yeah, lack of sleep sucks every year around that holiday but at least I can prepare for that. I can tell everybody around me, hey, if I'm irritable this weekend, I'm so sorry. My amygdala is being a jerk. Like I literally say that language in my house all the time. My amygdala is being a jerk. I'm so sorry. Here we are. That sounds, I'm hearing you describe that and I'm like, oh man, I'm so sorry. I wanted to like give you a hug. I don't like that you go through that every year. And I also think it's so cool and crazy that your brain does that. Yeah, like without even you trying, like your brain is just trying to protect you so bad from something it doesn't have control over, like an earthquake. No, it's just, it's amazing. And think about little kids when they're having a big feeling about something and so many little kids don't have the power or perception or words to say, oh, a year ago, this is when my dad hit me and we got separated in the child welfare system or however it looks, right? Or this is when there was a big fight between mom and dad and I saw it, right? But your body is reminding you and it's on alert to protect you. And what I see a lot in the work I specialize in is people's amygdalas who overfire. Because so much scary has happened and when you have an overfiring amygdala, everything feels like a threat, right? And so finding those containment opportunities, finding those self-care strategies, finding the ways that we can support them and connecting with their body and mind. Hey, what are the signals that your amygdala is going off? Mine are irritability every single time. If my husband looks at me and goes, you've snapped like too many times, I have to pause and go, is this the, my first question to myself always, because I know my amygdala really well now, is, is this the anniversary of dot, dot, dot, right? Like having a miscarriage, et cetera, like one of our miscarriages happened on Cinco de Mayo. Every year on Cinco de Mayo, people are posting their taco parties and I'm pissed off because my- Because you're remembering. Yeah, my body is not, unfortunately happened on a holiday so it's easier for me to remember. But I probably wouldn't forget it anyway because that's how my amygdala lets me know things, but I'm connected to that and I think teaching kids to connect to their body is also one of those skills. You know, it goes trust, safety, and the connecting yourself to your body. What in your body goes off when you're feeling a trigger, a trauma response? What's happening and connecting that for them? Because mine's irritability, I know it. I think when you teach a kid that, then they can feel like their body's not betraying them. Correct. They can feel like me and my body, we're on the same team. We're working together. Yeah, and I know what it's saying, or even if I don't know why, I know that it's saying something and that it's important and it's there, like compassion, you know? And curiosity, like ooh, instead of being mad at it, why is it doing that right now? Like what you do? What is this, okay, what's then an anniversary of? What is going on? Because for me, it's normally an anniversary of something that I did not think about, like- Realize it. Yeah, well, and that I tried to go, oh, it's fine, it's not gonna happen this year, or I'm trying to ignore it, or I'm just trying not to call it out super early to hope that it doesn't happen like that, but I should know better, because it might have made a lot of, gone off the way it's gone off, or however long I've been alive, and I think when you start working with families with such trauma involved in them and piecing that out, it's so important to teach each parent too, like what's happening for you when your kid is having those responses, because you were probably a part of that trauma trigger too in some way, shape, or form. I might live in the parent's body differently. Correct. And then you guys are anger, right? And you guys are channeling each other, right? And you guys are actually attacking each other with your trauma responses, and how do we alter that and support that is important. That's a good way to put it, because I think people don't realize that. No. A lot of times. Do you feel like when, okay, well, let me just say it, let me just say where I'm coming from. So I feel like in my life, before I was a therapist, I experienced so much in my body, but I never connected it to anything emotional or anything else other than my body. Like I had stomach aches every single day, and I didn't know why. Such a trigger, such a good trigger response. Such a common one, right? Yeah. And now I know. But I just didn't know what I didn't know. Excuse me. And I think my parents didn't know what they didn't know either. Like I think, I happen to be psychologically minded because of my education and my career, but I think most people, and especially if you add any kind of cultural component where in a lot of cultures, that this is what happened for me, is that that wasn't seen as a part of the picture. Like that. No. Any kind of physical somatic response could be related to anything else. Right. You ate bad food, or you didn't eat enough. Or there's something wrong with my stomach, or I have like an ulcer. I mean, I had to have like all these tests, whatever. But I was wondering if you've seen, because I kind of have seen this, but I don't know if it's because of my living experience that I'm like looking at it this way. That I think, I wonder if there's kids who didn't have the ability to verbalize. Like it couldn't come out, it couldn't be expressed. So whether it's crying, screaming, talking, laughing, right? Expression. That then it gets pushed down and in to the body. Cause I see that a lot, but again, I think that because that's what happened to me too. Oh, I see that a lot too. I mean, I've seen kiddos with such a wide range of physical responses. I see kiddos who their trauma response comes in, comes out in this like whole body movement system, right? Like they can't sit still. And people will call that ADHD. I would pause and be really curious. It's gotta rule out and make sure it's not. Yeah, there's the explainable root cause. Yeah, cause sometimes I can't keep my body quiet cause the trauma happened to my body. And so my body might want to like move around and be visceral about it, right? And then I've seen kiddos who their palms get super sweaty or their throat hurts or their stomach hurts or they have to try and think of like, there's so many interesting ways that kiddos learn that their body feels good. Like maybe they're self exploratory. Maybe they masturbate a little bit more than others because that feels good and that's a release, right? And you could be releasing trauma in that way cause it feels good, right? And I think a lot of times we see that kids, if you start asking them questions about their body, do you get headaches? Does your head hurt? Do you feel overly tired? Do your ears ring? Like all of these are symptoms of something stuck somewhere. And it's good data for me. Like if a kid can start being attention to their body and they can say, yeah, I do get gassy when I'm with this person or in this situation or I do have to move around a lot when I'm in therapy because all of the things I'm talking about coming out, right? I think, you know, this is where when teachers and other professionals at schools are seeing a kid who can't sit still, why are we forcing Johnny to sit still? Get him a ball to sit on, get him something, you know, like let's pivot. What if he could learn a different way? Correct. Yeah, and then also about the neural pathways. Like when you can strengthen the neural pathways in the brain to understand that when this, then that, when my body is wiggly, then I'm anxious about this, then it actually gets quieter. For sure. Because that's all it needs actually is for Peter Levine talks about this a lot, that just even noticing and bringing attention to the different parts of your being can quiet it down because it gets louder and louder if you're not able to know what that is. Right. And I think that's what was going on with my stomach, my stomach aches. Yeah, I experienced as a kid, it just got louder and louder. And actually another example I have that I find fascinating is I had really bad acne, like really bad acne, multiple times came and went in my life and I had one amazing doctor who was willing to think outside the box and he said, your skin is your biggest boundary. It's protecting your organs and your skin is flaring up because maybe you need to work on your boundaries. And what he didn't know is I had zero boundaries. I was what I call a doormat. I would, I just wanted everyone to love me and do, and I would just do it. And I learned that love was by me following the dream. Yeah, making everyone happy. So guess what happened? I was at the same time in grad school, so I was learning about all these things and I read a book called Boundaries and I started having a little bit of boundaries. And ever since then, I'm still working on it, but ever since then, I have not had the kind of acne that I've had. So is it a coincidence? Perhaps, but I don't think so. No, I don't think so either. I think it makes sense. When you think about like your body responding in a way that it's telling you something, it's like louder and louder, and then finally I feel like I listened to it and okay, I had other problems, but not that one, right? So, but I think it's fascinating. I think what that even goes further into here is that children who are born into trauma and utero don't know any different. Exactly. So when your body is- And it's pre-verbal. They don't know what they experience. No, and so when your body is trained to always have that stomach ache, you don't know what life is like without it. And so you don't even know that that's a precursor to anything until you get a clinician who will ask some interesting questions. Like I feel like I've had parents say to me in my work, I've never heard somebody ask my kid that question. Why did you ask that? I'm like, let's see what they say. And when we get the answer, the parent goes, I know I know that way. And it's like, yeah, because sometimes you have to have some out-of-box thinking. You have to, you know, I saw you guys had on Dr. Tanya Altmann for the pandas and I love that you have her on there because now that's like one of my, obviously, I have lived experience with that too. And that's one of my first questions always. Like, do we have pandas here? Do we have pans? Do we have pots? Do we have MTHFR? Do we have any of these things that live in our body that also heighten an already trauma-response person because that is data I need to separate, right? Like medical and mental mixed together, that's your trauma plus transition equal should show even more. Like that's just, I can't calm that down unless we facilitate the medical piece of that. I think so much of our work ends up being that. Like ruling out things, being responsible, being thorough, consulting with colleagues and, you know, continuing to learn. Yeah, same. I mean, I think about so often, I think about, like, oh, early in my career I must have missed so many things because I didn't know things that I know now. Right. And I'm grateful and I wish I could go back and help some of the families that I worked with before but I also was doing what I knew how to do. Right. And I, by the way, I try to have compassion for when I talk to colleagues now and maybe they don't know about something. I really just try to say, well, did you know about this thing? Because I learned about it and maybe it would help you. And again, I say this earlier and I'm saying again, that's another reason we're doing this is hoping that it kind of helps, you know, if someone's listening and they think, oh, I should call Maurissa because Maurissa knows a thing or two about that. About this, you know, maybe it's a clinician who has a client that maybe they feel like it's outside of their scope or they want to consult with you about it or they want to send, you know, a kid over to you because they're working with the parents or whatever. That's our hope. And I know that we could talk forever. We really could. You and I have and will. How many times have we done lunches and your kid was like sick? I know. You were nursing your poor little guy at breakfast and we couldn't stop talking. And you're like, I'll take him to the doctor but I got him. And continue. Because there's just so much. And it's so, for me, it's so invigorating to talk with somebody who is so passionate about the work that you do. Because I think that's really important and that gives me energy. So anyway, thank you for coming here today and sharing your experience and your stories and your knowledge. And my hope is that someone out there benefited from listening to your conversation. If not, we got some time together when we don't ever get time together. But yeah, no, thank you for having me on and inviting me. I mean, anytime with you guys is obviously a fave. So, so special to be here. Yeah, ditto, great. Thank you. Thank you.