Empathy Is a Human Skill — with Harsha Dodani

[0:00] Believe it or not, this is actually one of the first times that I'm sharing this story out loud. [0:05] So I'm proud of myself for actually being here to have the confidence to share this story. [0:10] And I feel really honored that you trust me in this space to share. [0:14] Yes. Yeah. Thousands of dollars on your football field. How much do you spend on mental health [0:19] if 50% of your students are going through mental health? [0:22] So it makes sense what you're saying because I think we as humans, we were meant to be [0:27] in community with others. And so if you think about it, what's going to be the way that we're [0:34] going to present our best selves is when the community supports us and we can thrive. [0:40] Welcome to Look for the Helpers, a podcast by Engage Therapy in Agoura Hills, California, [0:47] hosted by Adelina Brisbois, licensed marriage and family therapist, and her husband, [0:53] Dr. Blake Brisbois, licensed psychologist. Thanks for being here. [1:00] Good morning, Harsha. Thank you so much for joining us today on our podcast, Look for the Helpers. [1:07] This is really special for me to have you here. I want to introduce you a little bit, [1:12] and then I want to share about how we know each other. So this is Harsha Dodani from [1:17] EmpathifyU, and she is the Chief Heart Officer of that amazing organization, which [1:25] you will get to, and you can tell us about some amazing work that you and your husband are [1:30] doing for companies. But I just kind of wanted to start with our story because it's really [1:37] special. We were just talking about it off camera, but we've known each other for a really [1:43] long time. Been through a lot together. We've been through a lot together. You knew me when I was [1:47] like a newlywed, I don't know, 20-something year old. So I want to tell our listeners how we [1:54] met. So I was a school counselor at a private high school, and they sponsored me to go to, [2:00] like, I don't even remember the name of the workshop or what it was about. I just remember [2:04] your son, and he was a, at the time, a high school student who stood up and talked to a [2:11] big room full of adults talking about his story and how his story, that you, him and his parents, [2:20] you and Ajith, created an organization called My Name, My Story, and he told his story about [2:28] a stutter, right, that he had a stutter, and that when he shared about his journey, [2:34] that people were nicer to him. People were kinder because, and I remember he stood up [2:39] there and said, when, when other kids know that you have a story, then they share their story. [2:46] And as a school counselor at the time, and a, and a therapist, I remember I, like, ran after [2:53] you guys at the end, and I said, I need to have you come to my school. You need to talk to my [3:00] kids because you're right. I talk to kids every day, and they're all so similar. They have so [3:07] many common concerns and struggles and worries, but they would never be vulnerable enough to share [3:15] with each other. And I remember you and Ajith, because you're his parents, he's a teenager. I [3:20] felt like I had to ask you guys. And I remember you emphatically said, yes, we will figure it out. [3:27] We would love to do that. And he, of course, as well. So that was, that was our first moment. [3:33] And then since then, we, you know, he did come to the school I worked at. You guys did lots of [3:38] amazing work there with the kids that I was working with and have just stayed in touch, [3:44] but more importantly became friends over time. So it feels just really like an honor, [3:50] so special to have you here today. And even through my whole journey as a professional, [3:56] Blake and I, you and Ajith have always supported us. And I just want to say, [4:01] I know I always tell you, but it means a lot to us. It really makes a difference when we have [4:07] two people that we respect that are supporting us. So thank you. Wow, I'm going to cry. [4:13] It's true. Before we get started, I'm going to start crying already. That's okay. That's okay too. [4:18] Oh, wow. Thank you, Adelina. Thank you, Adelina. You and Blake are so special to [4:24] Ajith and I. And I remember that moment so clearly. And the relationship and the journey [4:30] we've gone through, I know you give us, you give us way too much credit. What you and Blake have done [4:35] for us has changed our lives. And it's, you know, the dots always connect backwards. And that one [4:42] meeting that we had has been just a blessing in our life. And it's just been, it's a journey [4:48] that we've been on with the two of you through you not having kids, having kids through you [4:54] building your practice, through us going through our own journey with mental health. And [5:00] believe it or not, this is actually one of the first times that I'm sharing the story out loud. [5:06] So I'm proud of myself for actually being here to have the confidence to share this story. [5:10] And I feel really honored that you trust me in this space to share. [5:14] Yes. Yes. And you and Blake are the reasons, one of the big reasons why we've been able to [5:20] go through what we've gone through and go through it. Right. And so, you know, like you're saying, [5:26] you know, my son founded an organization, my name, my story, and the premise was stories [5:30] inspire empathy and empathy drives change. And that was based on his own story where he had [5:34] a speech impediment challenge. And, you know, the whole premise was on sharing your story [5:42] to give support to others, but being able to overcome also. And it led into Changemaker [5:47] Day workshops that we did all over the country and one at your school also. And, you know, [5:56] crazy enough, we were at a Changemaker Day workshop, which I happened to be at with my son, [6:01] because he and his team, because it was all when young people talk to young people they listen. [6:05] So normally he'd go out in high school doing all of these keynotes all over [6:09] and these Changemaker Day workshops. Well, this was one that I happened to be at. [6:13] And it was in Fresno. And Ajith had called my son and I up and said, [6:21] you know, you guys need to come home, because, you know, my younger son was going to be admitted [6:25] to the hospital. And I didn't know what that really meant. I was like, hospital, is he okay? [6:32] Like I didn't understand anything. And it was the longest drive coming home for three and a half [6:37] hours. And he'd gone to the hospital because for mental health crisis. The blessing of it was that [6:45] he was seeking help. Like he was able to speak up and said, I need help. But that was a turning [6:52] because I was like, we're at a workshop teaching empathy. And the next minute later, [6:56] I'm at the hospital as a mom. And it shook my world. It blew me away because I didn't [7:01] know anything about mental health at that time. Clueless. Empathy. Teaching. No idea about mental [7:09] health. The stigma eight years ago was major stigma. There's still a stigma. But back then, [7:15] it was there wasn't as much education. And culturally, mental health is not talked [7:23] about in our Asian community at all back then. Like it was almost like a taboo or to even [7:27] talk about it, right? Like you can say you have a broken leg and everyone can visibly [7:31] see it. No problem. You can say broken arm, but mental health. And so fast. Anyways, you know, [7:39] he went through this, he's doing great. He's doing well. And that's what started my journey [7:45] and Ajith's journey. And our journey as a family of to kind of understand what is mental health, [7:50] how can we support? How can we learn? What can we do as parents? Because there were signs. [7:56] Well, look, you were doing so much as parents, right? You were going to schools, you were [8:01] teaching these workshops. So it's not like you were not doing anything. You were talking it, [8:06] talking about it, but it seems like it was so different when it was your own child, [8:11] which I think I've experienced too. Even my own kids struggle. It's like everything goes [8:17] out the window and you just go into mom mode. Yeah, but you know, we were teaching empathy [8:22] and we were teaching change making, we were teaching storytelling and vulnerability. But [8:27] I honestly didn't know what anxiety and depression was to be, I had no clue. Like if I look back, [8:34] the dots, if I look back, there were signs. I just didn't know what the signs were. [8:40] And I remember and I'm going to share this candidly openly because I love the work that [8:44] you guys do at Engage. And I know you're in schools, but I want every school to have [8:50] Engage in their school. And it, it irks me to know and that schools, [8:55] some schools are not doing enough about it, right? And, and at that time, eight years ago, [9:00] my son went to a private school. And so when we went to go talk to the school and I asked them, [9:08] I said, so what are you going to do? What's the first of all, I said, this is, this is what's [9:11] happened. And they said, Oh, well, you know, you know, we noticed that, you know, things were, [9:18] we noticed that we're like, you know, some things were different. And I was like, well, [9:22] how come nobody told me? And they said, well, if we had to call all of our parents, [9:27] it would be 50% of our parents, we'd have to call it on anxiety or depression. And I was like, [9:33] hold on a second. First of all, that's a problem. But second of all, [9:37] what am I paying them? Like you're 50% of your population is going to, and you're not [9:42] doing anything about it. And you don't think it's enough to call me about this. [9:46] And secondly, my son had sent an email to his English teacher the night before [9:52] at one o'clock in the morning saying, I'm not feeling great. In fact, you're probably the [9:58] only class that I care about. I don't think I can take the test tomorrow. And I just want to [10:03] share this with you because you're the only class I care about. And this is at one in the morning. [10:09] And the teacher applies at seven in the morning saying, next time you send me an email, [10:13] make sure that you check your grammar. And I'll let you go this just one time. [10:20] But next time you should be better prepared so you're ready to take the test. [10:24] And this teacher had no idea the gravity of what was going on behind the scenes, right? [10:30] I don't know, but I'm thinking no. But at the same time, I'm thinking there should be some [10:35] education and training. See, that's the thing. If you don't, there should be education and [10:39] training of signs to look for and how to be empathetic. I think you can lead with your [10:45] head, but you have to leave with your heart also. And I think that's something that sometimes [10:49] people can get so tainted about. And you think that kids are in the box. There are a lot of kids, [10:56] a lot of adults, for that matter, that are out of the box and being out of the box. [10:59] Beautifully outside of the box. Yeah. [11:01] It's beautiful to be out of the box. And you need to, I think the system needs to be able to [11:08] recognize that and not make it being like outliers, right? So when I went to the school [11:13] and I said, what are you doing about this? I said, you spend so much money on your football [11:16] field. Thousands of dollars on your football field. How much do you spend on mental health if 50% [11:23] of your students are going through mental health? And I remember talking to you and you were [11:27] telling me that when a child goes through mental health crisis and they come back to school, [11:32] there is a plan. There are protocols. Everybody knows about everything. And there is a system. [11:37] And I remember talking to you at that time and reaching out and they didn't have a system. [11:40] They said, well, we have one therapist. And I was like, 1500 kids, one therapist, [11:47] someone or everyone's burning out here, right? You know, you know what I will say, [11:52] I don't know if you've, I know you're still plugged in and you're very involved. So maybe [11:56] you've seen this, but I do think that the pandemic brought a lot of things that are challenging [12:01] and not great. But I think one positive is that it's brought more resources to schools [12:06] for mental health. So I kind of, I'm relieved by that because you're right. What you're talking [12:13] about though is what? Like 20? 2017? Yeah, exactly. And I think that during the pandemic, [12:20] it became very obvious to schools that they needed to figure out how to support their [12:25] staff better and their students better because it was a pandemic. I think that it was a way to, [12:31] like, there's nothing wrong with our school. We're just all going through this pandemic. [12:34] So we need to have reinforcement. I've talked to a lot of schools and I feel very strongly and [12:41] passionately about helping schools because of my experience, exactly what you just described. [12:46] And, you know, funding is always an issue, you know, support from leadership and all that. But [12:51] I do think it comes back to a little bit of that stigma. Like I've had principals say to me, [12:56] well, we don't have problems here. You know, there's no one that's suicidal here. [13:00] And it's maybe because they don't know about it, you know, because maybe it doesn't feel that just [13:05] hasn't gotten to their desk yet. But of course it's happening, right? Of course kids are depressed [13:10] and anxious. I wish that wasn't the case. I wish I couldn't say that so confidently. [13:15] But I, but I can because of the work that we do, because then we do talk to those schools [13:20] of the kids who come to our program. And, you know, a lot of times parents and teachers [13:25] and principals alike will say, oh, we had no idea. Yeah, we had no idea that it was this bad. [13:34] So I'm my, did it get better? Or did he get so fast? So, you know, so my older son [13:43] decided like a month later to post on Facebook about the struggles that his brother had gone [13:48] through. And when he was posting it, I was telling my husband, I was like, he's posting [13:52] on Facebook, everyone's gonna know. And my husband's like, let him do it. Let him do what's [13:58] the right thing. And retrospect, I'm like, wow. So brave. So brave. So brave to do that. And the [14:05] best thing, because I was part of the problem, right? Like here, I'm like, I was like, I was [14:09] part of that generational trauma or whatever you call of it, where I was like, what are people [14:12] going to think if you're posting it? Right. And you weren't meaning to. I wasn't [14:16] meaning to. But it was your part. It's like you're part of it. And so when he posted it, [14:21] Adelina, the amount of DMs, not comments, DMs of like, oh my gosh, thank you for sharing this. [14:27] My son is going through this month, you know, and I was like, why didn't any of you tell me? [14:31] Right. Why now? If I had that support, why did anybody tell me? And that's where I was just [14:36] like, no, you know what? I am going to get myself educated. I am going to surround myself [14:42] around the right people like you and Blake. I'm going to get my, I'm going to find out [14:47] the right language to use. I'm going to find out how can I be the best support for my son. [14:52] I'm going to tune out everybody in the world that doesn't get it. And so that was very difficult. [14:56] I'll be really honest. We had family that, oh, so is everything okay now? And I'm like, [15:00] it's all gone. It's going to disappear. We had family that said, oh, you shouldn't talk about [15:04] it. Why shouldn't we talk about this? How are we going to be able to support the generations [15:11] of all the generations, the younger generations, but even older generations, [15:14] we go through mental health. Of course. How are we going to be, if we're not able to talk about it [15:19] openly? And I realized I was like, I'm part of the problem. Stigma's got to stop. It's got to stop [15:24] with me, right? So that's when we made a decision, when I remember talking to you and you telling [15:30] me about inpatient, outpatient therapy, you were telling me about therapy in general. [15:35] In our culture, when a therapy was like taboo, it was like what, and now I'm just like, [15:39] everybody should be going to therapy. I go to therapy. Like it seems like a no brainer, [15:44] seems like a no brainer, but you don't know what you don't know. Yes, that's exactly right. [15:48] And I remember you telling me, it was so funny because my son is in music, and you had told me, [15:53] you said, and it's not like you're in music per se, right? But you had told me, you'd be [15:59] surprised, Harsha, how much you can learn about your child. Ignore the language, ignore the [16:04] bad words, but you'd be surprised how much you can learn by the music they're listening to. [16:08] And I was like, oh crap, like my son is in music, and I started listening to his songs, [16:14] and I was like, wow, like, but in the past it was like, oh, what about the language or the look [16:19] or the, and now it was just like, no, wait a second, there's, this is beauty, because he's [16:25] able to express his feelings, and I'm being able to learn from that. And I remember you telling [16:30] me, and I wish my kids were younger, so I could, I could have started earlier, but it's [16:36] never too late, right? But I remember you telling me with your kids how you play games with them, [16:40] and storytelling, and role playing, so you can find out about what they're going through, [16:45] and their feelings, and so now I share that with all my friends I've young kids. I was like, [16:49] this is what you need to do, and Adelina and Blake from Engage Therapy have taught me this, [16:53] and you know, so it's just, I think it's just, I want to be part of that mission of [17:01] creating more awareness within the schooling system, within the parents. So, [17:05] schooling system, I remember my son telling me, my older son, who's very wise, says, [17:09] this is a big shit, mom, this is a big business, you're not going to make a difference. I'm like, [17:14] oh, of course I am, you know. Don't stop me. Don't stop me. I didn't at that point, at that [17:18] point, but what we did do to your question is, my, my younger son went to independent studies, [17:24] he pursued his music career, is doing doing great by the great Scott doing incredible, [17:29] has had its ups and downs, but the beautiful beauty is, is he's be able to [17:33] change lives through his words, and he's able to be able to be vulnerable and authentic, [17:37] which is something that was, he was being like, in the box. And I had to realize that just because [17:44] I have one son that went to one school doesn't mean that that same environment [17:48] is going to be the same fit for my other son. Which I love about you, because a lot of parents [17:53] can't get there because of our own stuff, you know? So, I, because I've seen the work that [18:00] both of your sons are working on, because your older son is helping your younger son, right? [18:05] And it's, it makes me so happy when I see how unique he's expressed, the unique way that he's [18:12] expressing himself, and I see that he's taking chances. And, but what's the most important [18:18] is that his mom and dad are supporting him. And that's why he can take those chances. [18:23] And I don't even, I don't know, but I, I watch from the outside, because I don't, [18:27] I knew your older son, but I never really, I don't think I met your younger son. [18:31] But I feel like I know him from his music. Yeah. Just watching and it's, it's uplifting, [18:37] it's inspiring, and it's a new generation, it's a new time. And you and Ajith have [18:42] always like kept up, which is really inspiring. Because yeah, I also grew up in a culture where [18:48] still like there's a stigma to therapy, even though I'm a therapist, you know, [18:53] it's what I do for a living. And yet I didn't grow up, you know, with this being an okay thing [19:00] to do is like, you know, what's wrong with you? Or, you know, kind of this a little bit of shame [19:06] around like, I don't want something, I don't want it to mean if I have to take medication, it means [19:10] that, you know, I'm crazy, quote unquote. Yeah, culture is a really strong part of anyone's [19:17] identity. And often how we're raised comes from that, too. But wait, and I've asked you, I don't [19:23] know, we've had many dinners where I've said like, how do you do it? Because we don't come from the [19:29] exact same culture, but our families come from the same part of the world where it's just not [19:35] a thing. But what you have done is you've created a path for your kids to not have to [19:41] I think Ajith told me one time that he said to an elder, because I said, well, [19:44] that's my struggle, right? Like elders, like you have to respect the elders. And whatever the elders [19:49] say is like kind of a goes. And that's that was my struggle. And Ajith said, yeah, but you can still [19:54] do it in a respectful way, and still hold your own and say this is what I believe. And here's why. [20:00] And the way he said it really spoke to me. And I, and I, you know, I really have used that [20:07] not only in my own life, but actually to help families that we see at engage too. Because [20:13] that's why I'm in this field. I'm in this field because I come from a lot of different cultures. [20:18] And I could see that everyone was so similar. But actually, they thought they were also different, [20:23] you know, speaking different languages, expressing themselves in different ways. But [20:29] like, everyone's everyone at the end of the day, you know, loves me, because I was part of such [20:34] a mixed family. And, you know, everyone celebrated all the holidays. And there was [20:39] definitely a sense of love. But why can't the, I mean, here we are trying to solve, [20:45] let's just try to solve the world's problems. Why can't we all just get along, you know? [20:50] But it comes back down to vulnerability and being willing to share your story. And I will say [20:55] very differently. You know, I had my own journey recently with having a lot of miscarriages. [21:03] And it's so ironic because I'm in this field, I'm working with kids and their parents and, [21:09] you know, suicidal ideation, anxiety, all the things. But I wasn't talking about what was going on [21:15] with me. I was just putting one foot in front of the other and literally white knuckling through [21:24] the days, because I just felt like, well, everyone else's issues are just more important [21:28] right now. And I have to help them right now. And I'll deal with myself later, you know? [21:33] But guess what? That didn't work. Right? And I'm talking to you and I'm like embarrassed that I [21:38] didn't even like figure this out at the time. But obviously that didn't work. Obviously. [21:44] You know, I was angry. I was really angry. And I had reasons to be angry. But guess what [21:51] happened when I started sharing my story? I would sit at a table and of like five women and [21:58] everyone would say, oh, I've had two miscarriages. Oh, I've had three. Oh, I've had, I've actually, [22:03] I had one last week. I mean, oh my gosh, all of a sudden I wasn't alone. But unfortunately, [22:10] I didn't let myself talk about it until it was all done. Until I went through a healthy [22:15] pregnancy, had a baby. And I think it's because I felt safe then to talk about it. And so I appreciate [22:22] being able to sit with you and talk about this. Hopefully for other people listening, [22:28] maybe they don't have to wait until afterwards, right? Or until it's like the other side of this [22:35] journey that they can maybe get help and talk about it more immediately, right? So they don't [22:40] have to be alone. Because yeah, like you said, when you were getting those DMs, like oh, [22:44] my son is going through this, and then you didn't have to be alone in it. [22:48] And I think that, thank you for sharing that. Thank you for sharing that because that's [22:52] vulnerability to its core. And you know, thank you. And it's, and but that's what's going to [22:57] create the change I feel. That's going to create the change that people feel like they can, [23:01] women feel that they can share, moms feel that they can share, wives can feel, you know, [23:06] they can share and get that support and they're not alone, you know. [23:10] Well, there's this, I, okay, tell me what you think about this. And I think I was a part of this [23:15] problem myself. So I appreciate that you said that because I think I relate is that there was this [23:21] idea, I think there is this idea, at least maybe in my world, of this like, I'm going to get [23:26] through it. I'm going to, I'm going to show the world that I can do this. And it's awesome. [23:33] I think it like helps me power through difficult days. But it's also holds me back. [23:39] Yeah, for sure. I think, I think it goes back to something that we were talking earlier about [23:45] generational trauma and culture and unlearning things. Yeah, right. And I think that's, you know, [23:52] with my kids, for instance, I had to unlearn every, a lot, not everything, but they taught you, right? [23:58] They taught you. So I get very defensive when people say, Oh, this young, that next generation [24:04] is lazy, or this next generation is this or that. I'm like, Oh, no, they're not. No. [24:08] In fact, there's so much, a lot of them are a lot more wiser and a lot more aware of their feelings [24:14] than we ever were. Then we are, you know, they're aware of, okay, we need to process this, we need [24:19] to feel grief, we need to feel this. And sometimes I remember, you know, them telling me, you know, [24:24] sometimes it just sucks. And I'm just like, but no, it can't just suck for myself, right? [24:29] Because I want to be the solution. I want to be the mom or the woman that has a solution for [24:33] everything. Everything's okay. Everything's gonna be fine. And I think that's, I think for me, [24:38] I think it's a cultural thing. I think it's something that like, [24:43] you're not supposed to talk about things that are going wrong in your life. You're just supposed [24:46] to suck it up. You're not, it's supposed to be on the outside world that, you know, everything [24:50] is just perfect. You're not supposed to talk anything about your husband. You're not supposed [24:52] to talk about your kids. You're not supposed to talk about anything for me. And I had to [24:56] learn. How refreshing is it when someone does? Oh, I love it. That's why I'm here talking. [25:00] That's why Ajith and I do the work we do in the corporate space now. [25:04] Can you tell us about that? We could talk for days. Tell us about that. [25:07] So, you know, Ajith and I run a company called EmpathifyU. I'm the Chief Heart Officer of [25:15] EmpathifyU. What does that mean? Chief Heart Officer. And everything, I love people. I'm a [25:22] lover of people. And when we built my name, my story, I was token that name just because [25:29] of who I was. Because just being around people gives me joy. And seeing other people succeed [25:34] and thrive gives me joy. And being that person that's able to really listen gives me joy. So, [25:41] and the Chief Heart Officer, Ajith explains it really well. He's like, it's like you've got the [25:46] heart helps all the other organs work in the, in your body. He's like, you're the glue that [25:53] makes everything else connect. And I was like, oh, that's kind of cool, you know. But I do believe [25:59] because you have to learn how to work with your head and your heart. It's not one or the other, [26:03] right? And I think that's, I think that's a sweet spot that Ajith and I both represent because, [26:08] you know, it's like with EmpathifyU, we're a learning and development organization that we [26:11] go into corporations and teach them how to increase their productivity, profitability by [26:17] increasing their trust, getting them to understand that empathy is a superpower. It's [26:22] not a soft skill. It's a human skill. But you need that human skill. My husband is known as the [26:28] CFO that teaches KP, speaks KPIs and empathy in the same sentence. So when we go into companies, [26:35] we say, listen, you want to have more profit and product productivity, you want to have manager [26:39] effectiveness go up, you want to have your retention go up, you need to build trust. [26:44] And how do you build trust? You need to be able to teach your, your, your team how to [26:50] actively listen. You need to teach your team the power of presence. You need to teach your team [26:55] about shadow values. But all at the core, it has to be between communication, accountability, [27:01] relationships and problem solving. And empathy is great, but you can have too much empathy also. [27:07] Right. Because then you don't have accountability and boundaries. [27:10] So that's what we do with EmpathifyU. So we go into small. Incorporations. [27:15] Incorporations. We go to small to mid-sized corporations. Because we've been speaking [27:18] empathy like he said for years and Ajith was speaking it for years also in the corporate world. [27:24] And when the pandemic happened also, I was like, okay, you know what? Kids just need to be kids now. [27:29] Like they've already gone through a lot with the pandemic. We are not going in and doing any [27:32] changemaker day workshops with these kids. Right. We're just surviving at this point with the [27:36] kids. And they just need to come back to school and have fun now at that point and connect, [27:39] you know. So we were like, but you know what? It was just a trend. It was, it was, and [27:43] Ajith was already doing this. I feel like he does it naturally. He does it naturally. [27:48] And you do your part naturally. So it just seemed like the next step. It seemed like that. [27:52] So it's just kind of a trajectory, but we've been doing it for years. And [27:58] let's go say something with that. I just hit a blank. I have a question. What do you think [28:03] about that? I'm curious how, what kind of response do you get from corporations [28:10] when you come in and say something like chief heart officer, right? That's so different. [28:16] It's not a known term. I've never heard that before. And I hear that and it makes me, [28:21] it really makes me smile, right? Because yes, yes, obvious. This is obvious. It's great. [28:27] But I feel, I get the sense of like, oh my gosh, I hope I can imagine that there is this [28:33] initial like eye roll or like, oh God, here we go. Another thing. But I imagine that once they get to [28:40] know what you're saying and doing that it's like, okay, maybe, maybe do they become more open to it? [28:46] Because I'm just thinking about people who have been in the corporate world forever. [28:49] Nobody likes change. And yet change is always necessary. So I'm just curious, [28:57] how is that? I think it's very intriguing for them when they hear that. [29:01] Because it's different. It's different. They don't know what it means. [29:03] It's different. And I think with Ajith and I together with the work we do on our team, [29:07] but Ajith and I are their face with Ajith being having the finance background. [29:12] And like I said, he starts with that. He comes with another. [29:15] Yes. And Ajith and I, you know, we've been working together for all our years together [29:20] since we've been married. And so I think there's a beauty of it when you, because Ajith is [29:24] very charismatic and very like energetic and, you know, and I think when people hear his story [29:31] where a finance guy speaking empathy and then they hear his wife as a chief heart officer [29:36] and you see the way we both work together, it's, I think it's heartwarming for a lot of people. [29:42] It's refreshing. It's refreshing for a lot of people. And I had heard, we had heard that [29:49] Gary Vee is somebody that we listen to a lot and Gary Vee has a chief heart officer. [29:54] And that's where I was like, Oh, I like that. You know, I like that. [29:58] But what I was going to tell you is in this middle of everything that's been going on in my [30:04] life, speaking as women and being vulnerable and speaking up. So a couple of, after, you know, [30:09] things settled down with our lives. And right before the pandemic, I had decided that, okay, [30:15] you know what? My kids are pursuing music. Ajith is doing his thing. What do I want to do [30:19] for myself? Because somewhere along that line, I felt like I'd lost myself. I felt like I was doing [30:24] stuff. Growing up, I helped my parents build their business. Then I got married. Ajith and I were [30:29] building a business together. We've done many businesses together. Then my son's business. [30:34] Right. And I was like, who am I? Yeah. And where is the Harsha that I was 20 years before? [30:39] And I remember telling Ajith that, you know what, I want to go get a job in the corporate [30:42] space. And he's like, you want to do what? I'm like, yeah, I want to go in a high rise [30:47] building. I want to go ahead and, you know, and he's like, wait, what? And I remember this because [30:52] along with building businesses, I was that mom that was taking care of the kids. And I remember [30:58] my son telling me, I clearly remember this, where we were sitting outside and I made three [31:03] different breakfasts. Okay? One for Ajith and two for the right. And I'm still an entrepreneur [31:08] with my husband, right? But I'm the mom. Yeah. Doing all the things. And my friend is sitting [31:13] there, she has a six month old baby and she's just looking like, and I'm like, and my son [31:18] looks at her and says, what? My mom likes cooking for us. And I was like, oh, that's what he thinks. [31:26] And it was out of the, like it was so innocent out of his heart because that's what I had done [31:30] for so many years. Oh, I loved it. That's what he gleaned from it. That's what he gleaned [31:36] because I had done it for so many years. My mom loves doing this for me. And so I was like, [31:41] okay. That's what he thinks. I told her, jeez. I was like, I don't really like cooking. And [31:45] she's like, you don't like cooking. And I was like, I was like, no, I just been doing because I [31:50] got to do it, right? He's like, he's like, Oh, but I love cooking. I'm like, but then you do it. [31:55] Oh my gosh. Okay. And then he is, I don't like going to grocery store. He goes, you don't. [31:59] And I said, I hate going to the grocery store. He's like, but I love going to grocery [32:04] store. It's therapy for me. I'm like, then you do it. Thank goodness you had this [32:08] conversation. And that was the other thing, as couples being married, and I know I'm all over [32:12] the place, but as couples being married, there's so much to talk about. But as couples being married, [32:16] I'm not, and you are not the same person we were when we met Lake Energy, right? And every, [32:22] every year we're, and thank God we're both of us and they're not the same. But I think the [32:29] key in relationships is really connecting with each other and learning how to grow with one [32:34] another and being open to say, Oh, really? You don't want to do that anymore. Okay. So [32:39] who are you and what do you want to do and what do you represent and who do you want to be [32:44] and who I want to be today? Right. It's not the same person was 20 years ago or 30, [32:49] we've been married 34 years, right? But to be able as a relationship to have those conversations [32:54] regularly with each other. And I had that conversation. He's like, Well, what do you [32:57] want to do? And I was like, I want to go in the corporate world. And he's like, [33:00] okay, you know, he's like loud and like doesn't watch the corporate world like all. [33:05] Anyways, I went for an interview, like two weeks before the pandemic. And he goes how to go. And [33:11] it was a very large company. It was 20,000 people company. And he was how to go. I go with [33:17] the manager hugged me at the end and he's like, excuse me, I'm like, I think I got the job. [33:22] So anyways, got the job. It was in learning and development, but invent coordination. Got [33:27] the job. But two weeks later, pandemic hit right. So I was like, Okay, I got the job. [33:32] I know what now what like, I was, I was organizing events. Now I'm canceling events. [33:37] So like, I don't know if I'm going to, you know, anyways, fast forward ended up becoming [33:41] permanent. The company was on contract got permanent the year later. And obviously, [33:46] they saw that what I was doing with the learning and development side, but I was doing [33:51] logistics. They noticed that I was more than a logistics person. They knew something more. [33:55] So the, the CPO of 20,000 people mentioned my name in a meeting and said that [34:03] I highly recommend she run our employee experience program. [34:07] Couldn't have found a better person for that. So I was like, Oh, wow. Like, and I even remember [34:11] talking to him. And I remember going in there and I just like how to go. And I was just [34:15] having a one on one, just like, you know, which I booked with him and people like you [34:19] booked up with a CPM. Like, yeah, why not? Like, and I'm like, how did you guys [34:22] how to go? And I, well, we went together for like 50 minutes. He's like, 50 minutes. He's like, [34:27] 50 minutes of his time of his time, 20,000 people like what, you know, [34:31] I was a great casual conversation. Anyways, I became the co-chair of the employee [34:35] experience team. What I did find out is I found out that within the organization, [34:43] there was a lot of toxic leadership. And when you call out that BS and you stand for [34:49] the people and you stand for the team, not everyone's going to like it. [34:54] Oh yeah, because that's part of the toxic. That's part of the toxicity. And when the, [34:58] when the what one leader can do that's command and control and led by fear, how it can create [35:06] a ripple of effect of disengagement, it can create an effect of losing great talent, [35:12] which is going to be a loss of productivity and profitability. Trust scores are tanking. [35:18] Yeah. Right. And, and you see that and I, and I saw that and I was like, oh, wait a second. [35:25] And I saw that. But again, you were in this, you, because you're coming from the lens of [35:29] everything that brought you to this moment. Yes. But what happened is I let that experience [35:35] of that toxic leader, the chief pop people officer, incredible. It was that one toxic [35:41] leader and that I chose to call out because I was part of the employee experience team. [35:45] And I was supposed to represent what mattered to the employees. And when your trust scores [35:50] are tanking because of a leader, like, hello, right? Gotta make a change. But what happened [35:56] is that whole experience got me to doubt myself because that toxic leader took the best out of [36:04] me. And that's part of what's so toxic. That's part of what's toxic. So what happened to me [36:09] is all of a sudden I started because of the things they were saying, because obviously [36:12] when I was calling out the BS all of a sudden the retaliation and, you know, and I started [36:18] doubting myself. I started doubting where I was. I started doubting my intelligence. [36:22] I started start affecting my mental health because it hits you where it hurts. [36:25] Well, that's that's the definition of a toxic really relationship of any kind. [36:29] And, and, and I thought exactly to your point earlier that I thought, no, no, [36:33] I'm fine. I'm fine. I got to push through it. I got to push through it. Like, [36:36] this is normal or like I'm weak if I if I'm feeling this way or, you know, [36:42] I got to suck it up. Like, come on, you know, I can hang with the big guns here. Yeah, I can [36:46] until I wasn't okay. And I remember a friend telling me at work, she was a coworker and she [36:53] goes, I am worried about you. And I was like, I looked at her and I was like, [36:56] now in the meantime, during that time, I was disengaging from my family. I was [37:00] eating like crazy. I stopped working out. I couldn't see those signs. I had a coworker [37:06] to tell me, I'm worried about you. And I remember at that point, kind of getting a slap in my face. [37:13] And I said to G, they go, I'm not okay. And that was because the journey we had gone on for [37:18] the few years. And because of knowing people like you and Blake, right, to teach me about [37:23] mental health and teach me about the signs. But also what do you do next? Yeah, now what? [37:30] And that's what I did. I said, I'm not okay. And I ended up, [37:35] I went to the doctors and all my numbers were off and everything. I ended up taking [37:39] leave from work. And at that point, I was like, I'm going to take care of myself. [37:43] Like, I'm going to be, you got to be self, you have to be selfish to be selfless. [37:50] And that was the point that I was like, no, you know what, this is about me now. [37:55] You know, I'm not going to, I'm going to take care of me. And I remember telling a G, [37:58] they remember telling my kids, like, I'm going to do what's good for me right now. [38:02] Like that's it. And I took that time for the most loving thing you can do for your family. [38:08] Yeah. And that's what I did. And they were so supportive. And I went through therapy. [38:13] And I went through the hard work. And I went through to create those habits that I needed [38:18] to create for myself, because crap's going to happen every day. Yeah. You know, [38:23] but I went through finding out what are those daily habits and routines I needed to create [38:27] for myself and then talk about it, you know, and, and share those stories with other people [38:32] and other women to let them know that you're not alone. Like you don't always have to, [38:37] you know, keep that you don't always have to have everything look like you've got it [38:41] all together. It's okay to not have it all together. You know, it's normal. It's normal. [38:46] So now going back to, I, so then I decided to join Ajith with and EmpathifyU as a chief [38:52] art officer and go in and take my lived experiences and lessons learned that I had in the corporate world [38:57] to teach companies a pair of things which you do do and here are things which you don't do. [39:02] And how can you have a thriving workplace culture and have productivity and profitability and how [39:09] you can be empathetic and accountable and have relationships. It's not an or thing. It's an [39:15] and thing and go into companies and teach them that if you take care of your people, [39:19] yeah, they're going to take care of you in the business. They're going to do a better job. I mean, [39:23] it's the same thing back to schools, right? When kids are well, they do a better job academically [39:28] because they're well. When they're not doing well, they, how can they focus on math and science? [39:34] They're, when they're just trying to figure out how to get through their day, you know, [39:38] it's not different. It's back to your point that it's just adults are at work [39:42] and kids are at school. So that's the only difference. And, you know, we're social [39:47] people that are, we're like a, if you think about back, you know, or our or our origin is that we're [39:58] heard, we're heard kind of species, right? So it makes sense what you're saying because I think [40:05] we as humans, we were meant to be in community with others. And so if you think about it, [40:11] like how what what's going to be the way that we're going to present our best selves is when [40:16] the community supports us and where we can thrive as a community, we can all build each other up, [40:22] hold each other up versus if we're in a company or a community, which is ultimately a company ends [40:27] up being its own community, right? Yeah. If we're all by ourselves trying to survive, [40:31] then we're just surviving. And that's like the bare minimum, as opposed to if everyone in the [40:36] company is supporting each other, then they can all we can all thrive and the whole ship. [40:40] What's that phrase about the ships all rising? A rising tide raises all. Thank you. [40:48] Yeah, that seems so obvious. But, you know, in my experience working in different organizations and [40:54] just I see family systems all the time. And I come from that framework, right? Like a family [40:59] system, like very much like you were describing. And what we've seen at engage and even [41:04] personally, when one person of the family is not doing well, everyone is kind of not [41:09] doing well, you know, whether everyone whether we're talking about that or not, it's felt. [41:13] And so when everyone's doing well, the whole, you know, when we can support each other and [41:18] hold each other up, everyone thrives. And I going back to kind of why I'm so grateful [41:25] for our friendship over the years is that I feel like you and a G in the work that you do, [41:31] you do it in a big way, but you do it in a small way in your community [41:35] by supporting those like us. And I know other organizations, Childhood Matters has been [41:41] another shared organization that we both really support. And for obvious reasons, right? I mean, [41:47] we know that childhood matters. And we want to make a change. And so I really admire that [41:55] that you take what you do in companies, and you do it in your community as well, [42:01] because it's one in the same. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, our goal, our mission is we want to create [42:06] a world where everyone feels that they belong. We want to create a world when, you know, when our, [42:10] when, when your kids go out in the workforce, whatever they choose to end up doing, [42:15] that they feel they belong in whatever their, whatever their uniqueness is, right? You know, [42:22] we want our kids to know what they feel like they belong, what if there's no cookie cutter [42:26] way of being the perfect person? Like we go in and our workshops that we do with companies [42:31] is we infuse talking about neurodiverse inclusion. Yes. I want you to talk about that. Yes, [42:36] we infuse that because see, and you know, you know, you're saying that sometimes people won't [42:41] companies won't get it, right? Like sometimes companies won't get sort of the Chief Heart [42:45] Officer or you know, empathy and all of that kind of stuff, right? But what Ajith and I [42:49] have realized that when we align, when we, when we align everything to the business goals, [42:56] all of a sudden, people listen, right? So our goal is let's say supporting neurodiversity [43:02] at work. That's something that we talk about a lot in all of our workshops. And, but in order [43:07] for us to get companies to understand, we let you know, one out of five people are neurodiverse [43:12] And the span of neurodiverse is huge, right? So there's so if one out of five [43:19] people are neurodiverse, that means one out of five of the customers are neurodiverse. [43:23] So if you're not getting trained in how to work with neurodiverse people, you are losing [43:30] profitability right there because your customer base is that. So you have to learn about it. [43:36] And so that's something that we, we talk about and we train about and we get C-suite to [43:42] understand it by letting them know, listen, these are the facts. And so when we do workshops, [43:47] we talk about give simple tips of how can you make a meeting more neurodiverse-inclusive? [43:53] You know, a lot of times you have a meeting where there's 12 people there and the same [43:57] three or four people end up talking all the time, right? Sure, you get great ideas, [44:02] but what about the balance of the people? So we've told companies list it, listen, [44:07] if it's not an urgent meeting, don't close out the meeting for 24 hours. [44:10] Let the team know that they can submit their ideas via email or text or how we're away. [44:16] Do you know how much more innovation you're going to get? Right, because the idea is sometimes [44:20] they come later. They come later or people, some people are not ready to speak up [44:24] at a meeting, you know, give them time to process it. Exactly, they come later, [44:29] give them time to process it, you know, or, you know, don't send out a chat to one of [44:34] your team members saying, Hey, do you have a quick minute to talk without letting them [44:37] know what it's about? Right, because it throws people off, it scares them. [44:41] It scares them. They're going to get fired. You know, forget about being neurodiverse, [44:45] anybody. First of all, I think, I think, I think everyone is neurodiverse. [44:48] I was just going to say that, like that, what does that even mean in the sense of, [44:53] I like that term, because I think it includes a wide range. But what I don't like that, [44:59] what I don't like about the term is that it maybe alludes to the fact that [45:05] there's like something so different. Yeah. And the thing is, it's actually, [45:09] I just think there's neurodiversity that's more socially acceptable. And there's neurodiversity [45:14] that becomes less socially acceptable. I'm going like this because it's like all relative. [45:19] But I think it's all dependent on your environment. Right? Yeah. Like I think, [45:23] I don't know, because I'm not in the tech world, obviously. But I'm going to guess that if [45:28] you're an engineer in an engineering firm, you're going to be surrounded by a different [45:34] type of population than if you're a therapist working, you know, in a clinic, let's say. [45:40] Yeah. Because those are the, that's what those people, you know, are good at. [45:46] You know, maybe some little bit more techy. Like, I can't even say the words because [45:52] I'm so not that, you know, I don't even know what the words are. I'm just thinking about, [45:56] I have a cousin who's in, he's a computer engineer. Actually, I have a couple cousins [46:02] that are engineers and just a different type of brain, a different type of person that I am not. [46:07] I wish I was. I wish I could do numbers in my head and I can't. I just can't. And how [46:13] beautiful is it that there's some people like me and there's some people like them? [46:17] Like we're both just different and unique. And to your point that in a meeting, [46:22] if you could bring everyone's strengths out, then every, what is it, the rising tide? [46:28] Raises all ships. I need to, I need to get that one down because I like it so much, [46:32] but I can't remember it. That's a perfect example of that, right? [46:36] It's, it's, it's, you know, we, you know, we work with a lot of companies with engineering [46:41] companies, banks, in a lot of different variety of companies. And the one thing [46:46] is everyone needs to learn human skills, right? Even with, you know, that that's a commonality [46:53] where if everyone learns human skills, they're going to succeed and thrive. [46:57] Right. [46:58] So it's not, yes, okay. So you're an engineering company, all of them think differently. [47:01] They're all engineers, right? But if we can teach those human skills of what you guys [47:06] teach, engage, you know, the power of presence, if we can teach active listening, [47:10] if we teach, if we can teach about effective communication, all of that stuff, [47:16] those are, no matter what type of personality you are, you need to know those skills, right? [47:21] But what we do in EmpathifyU is we tie it into business outcomes. [47:25] Yeah. Because you speak in the language of like your audience, basically. [47:29] But the end goal of the results is you're a better human at home, you're a better wife, [47:33] you're a better daughter, you're a better son, you're a better, you know, [47:36] we did a deployment with a company and a four month deployment with the company. [47:43] And you're not going to get everybody that buys in, right? [47:45] 80% people probably don't buy in. And so there was one person who was very like [47:50] conservative and strong and like wouldn't, you know, and wasn't vibing with Ajith at all, right? [47:56] How can you not vibe with Ajith? I feel like he's so easy to [48:00] Once you get to know Ajith, you have to vibe with Ajith, right? [48:03] But there's some people that think, okay, this guy is, you know, [48:06] but at the end of the deployment, camera was off the whole time through all the workshops. [48:11] Disengaged. We didn't know, right? Camera was off. [48:14] So you don't know. At the end of the workshops, you put this camera on and he says, [48:21] this workshop not only changed my life, but it changed my relationship with my daughter. [48:27] And then we were just like, we won. Yeah, you weren't expecting that, were you? [48:32] We won because, you know, whatever work, but when it changes your household and your home. [48:38] Oh, I got chills. Yeah, you know, I think I would, it's probably not super similar, [48:45] but I draw the similarity with the reflective parenting stuff that we do here is that [48:51] so much of that curriculum has to do with us, the adults, the parents, [48:56] thinking about our own relationships as kids and our own attachment style. [49:01] Yes. And what we same thing, this is why it reminded me is because what we've seen [49:04] is that, okay, they're here because they're trying to be, you know, more aware as parents [49:09] and it's called reflective parenting. So what it really means is you're reflecting on your own [49:15] attachment styles, not necessarily about your kids, but what ends up happening is that parents [49:21] will say to us, you know, yes, I, my relationship with my kid, I think has improved, but more [49:28] so my relationship with my partner has improved. And it's sort of like the surprise attack [49:32] like, oh, wait a minute, you weren't expecting that, were you? But it's obvious, it seems obvious [49:38] when you think about it from, you know, after the fact, you're like, yeah, if you can have more [49:43] empathy back to empathy, right? So you can have more empathy for the fact that maybe your, [49:49] your partner gets triggered when, you know, your kid screams, but you don't because [49:56] of your upbringing and their upbringing, then maybe you can partner differently and you [50:01] can show up differently. And then your partner can feel supported as opposed to feeling abandoned. [50:05] So I think it's probably a similar dynamic that happens is that this man learned something at [50:11] work that had to do with work, but applied to his home. And I think that's what we see too, that [50:16] when you learn about yourself, you can apply it to all the environments that you're in, because [50:21] like you, you know, I wear a lot of different hats in a day, right? Yeah. And I'm still the [50:28] person, no matter what hat I'm wearing. And so if I learn those skills and I apply it to the [50:33] different areas, they're all going to improve. Yeah. So I love that. I mean, I just, and I do [50:39] believe, you know, some people may think this is so idealistic, but I do believe this is how [50:46] we make the world a better place. Oh yeah. Just by one, one person or two people at a time. [50:51] And when you say like we won, I feel the same way. I feel like if one kid, [50:56] one kid has a different experience, a better and improved experience, because their parents did [51:01] this program or they, you know, got support, then we won. That's the whole point of doing this whole [51:06] thing. Yeah. Is just to help as many kids as we can, as many parents who, by the way, we're all [51:12] kids. And she says, she says to me, because parents, parents are kids, we're all kids, [51:18] grown up kids, raising kids, and we don't know what the heck we're doing. That's right. [51:22] That's right. And then when you really think about it, our parents are also kids. Oh, yeah. [51:28] That are raising kids that are raising kids. You know, it just keeps going. But it's also, [51:32] I think we have to stop the generational trauma. Exactly. And I'm going to go back to that because [51:39] you know, we, our parents didn't know anything about boundaries. [51:44] Right. And recently I went through an incident with my dad was going through [51:50] major health challenges, he's doing great now and stuff. And I was there to support him. And [51:57] but there was a point where I had to set my own boundaries also, because I felt like I was [52:01] being taken for granted for certain things, right? And it was difficult. And it was Ajith, [52:06] the one that was kind of telling like, we're on a forefront saying like, [52:12] like he, he was using, and that's why I always talk about him about walking the walk and [52:16] talking the talk, because he was using the whole communication relationship problem solving values [52:23] that we stand by in this incident in our personal life too. And I had to set boundaries with my [52:28] parents and with my mom, which was very difficult. But I had said, I'm no good to you if I'm not [52:34] taking care of myself right now, just like your kids, just like my kids. And I, but, [52:38] and I was like, I sometimes feel like, you know, just because I'm always available, [52:42] everyone thinks that, oh, she has nothing going on in her life. But I'm telling you that I'm [52:46] suffering right now because of that, right? And so, but those boundaries are never spoken about [52:51] with our parents generation, you're just supposed to just go through things and you're [52:55] supposed to show up. I'm a better person with those boundaries now with my mom and dad. [52:59] But you know, I really think that they each generation responds to what happened before. [53:06] Yes. You know, so I think that's what I've seen in family therapy a lot too, is that [53:12] when you when you start asking the questions, you see that that's a response, they're trying to do [53:18] better than what was done for them, even though it's not working anymore. Because after a couple [53:23] times, the, the, the problem changes. Right? Yeah. So what you're saying about the word [53:29] boundary, you know, every family is different and every generation has a different challenge [53:37] that they had to face that they, I think, respond to. But it's coming from, I believe, [53:45] I really believe that it's usually coming from a place of trying to do better. And it takes you, [53:50] the next generation to say, but here's how it's not working for me anymore. Like what [53:54] worked for you? Cool. It's not working for me. And so I don't need to take that with me. You, [54:00] the you took what you needed to take. I'm taking what I need to take and I'm leaving the rest [54:04] behind. And that's hard. It's so hard. Because I'm guilty of it. I was going to say to me too. [54:10] I'm so guilty of it until the experience would happen with my son. I was doing everything [54:15] the way I was raised. Because that's what you know. That's the only thing I knew. Yeah. [54:18] But when I realized I'm like, Oh, this is not taking me where I want to go. Like, [54:23] control all delete because because it's not working. I mean, I'm here. Not that I take blame [54:29] for anything at all. But I'm like, no, but I'm here in this situation. Something is not working here. [54:35] Like there's some things that I need to change. Not that I take like, but there's [54:38] some accountability. Yes. So like, so at that point, I was like, I know, I gotta say so [54:44] instead, like, you know, like what you were saying about the respecting elders, right? [54:49] Respecting elders is important, but it goes two ways too, right? Kids can feel when they're not [54:52] respected too. Yeah, 100%. And telling kids to respect elders when the elders are not doing [54:57] respectful things. Right. It's a double standard. And it's a confusing message. It's a confusing [55:01] message. So like, like even for my kids, I had to kind of rewire and say, yes, I'm the parent, [55:07] but right now I need to learn from you guys. And I really, Ajith and I went through a lot [55:12] close. You did learn a lot from your kids. We control all deleted everything. We were [55:16] different people before, honestly. I sit here and you say that we support our kids, [55:20] but we were completely different. We were very boxed in with certain things that we thought, [55:25] certain, we were very boxed in until we got ourselves thinking, no, this is not working. [55:31] And then we surrounded ourselves around people like you and Blake and saying, no, [55:36] we need to learn a different way. Okay, but I have a question because were you [55:40] choosing to be boxed in? No, we just didn't know better. You just didn't know. That's [55:44] what I mean. I think that a lot of people, it's not a choice. It's just a lack of, [55:48] like you don't know what you don't know, but you, but you have, you can't hide behind that. [55:53] You have to, you know, show up to grow and learn and do something different. You know what? [55:59] I'll tell you something that came to my mind when you were talking. What happened to me? [56:03] When was it Monday night? We had a tough night me and my daughter and she was yelling at me [56:09] and I, it's a trigger for me. I can't, I just, I, I like lose my mind and she did something that is, [56:17] was earth shattering to me. She moved her body, came close to me, sat, so she was sitting on [56:25] the couch. I was in the kitchen cooking and she said, mama, come here and she made us both [56:30] go sit in a different place. So she was here. I was here. She took me to the dining table. [56:34] She said, come here, sit down. I want to talk to you. Wow. And part of me wanted to be like, [56:42] but I was like, oh my gosh, what is happening right now? So I sit down next to her. She holds my hand [56:49] and she said, mama, I don't like it when you talk to me that way. It makes me feel like you [56:54] don't love me, but I think you love me. So I, I need you to not talk to me like that. [57:02] And I wanted to laugh on what, you know, because I just, she was so cute, but it also made me realize [57:09] I have to show up differently. She's doing what I have done to her, right? I've done that. I've said, [57:16] come here, I want to talk to you. I pulled her hand. So she learned that from somewhere, [57:21] but I had a choice point there. I could have done what I wanted, what my like instinct was, [57:26] which was to be like, well, you need to behave it. I just, I wanted it. It was like coming from a [57:32] like, I'm going to teach you moment to, or I could do it differently. Wow. Yeah. Wow. And I said, you [57:40] know what? You're right. I love you. I'm glad you know that I love you. I will talk to you [57:46] differently. Can you also talk to me differently? And she said, yeah, can you just help me with [57:52] my homework? Because that's what she was yelling at me about. And I said, I said, I would love to [57:57] help you with your homework, but can I finish making the dinner that you asked for? And she goes, okay, [58:03] deal. Wow. Wow. But, but that was a moment where it's like it was, I was, I was, I felt like I [58:10] was slapped in the face. You know, that's, you know, that's what you feel. But when I hear [58:15] it on the outside, I'm like, wow, Adelina, the parenting that you have done for her, [58:19] like, that is huge. The fact that she can come and do all of that. Because that's what you teach. [58:27] Well, the reason I wanted to laugh initially was because she was acting like a little adult. [58:32] You know, but that's what you've, you have done that taught her to be able to communicate her [58:39] feelings and how to communicate the feelings. And what do you do? And let's take it back. [58:44] You know, let's, let's take this whole conversation back. Come sit down with me. [58:48] That's the touch. That's the part that struck me is that she understood that she needed to move [58:53] and we needed to go to a neutral space. And she was doing her homework. I was cooking. So she took [58:59] us to a neutral space where I wasn't cooking and she wasn't in front of the homework. So yeah, [59:04] she's touching your hand. She was holding my hand. Mama, but she was scolding me. Like her [59:09] voice was like, Mama, because of how I talked to her, you know, like, you know, you really, [59:13] I need you to not talk. So I had a reaction to that, but I had to hold my reaction to that. [59:19] And that's the reason I'm sharing that example is because that's an example of breaking [59:23] cycles and doing something huge, acknowledging and making a conscious effort to say what I want to [59:31] do, what my instinct wants to just do is different than what I know that I should do. I know [59:38] better, do better. You know, and so it's not, I'm not always, listen, it was ugly. So I don't, [59:44] I don't want to point, make it sound like everything's so dandy. That was a great moment for me. But I [59:50] also felt embarrassed. You know, I was like, this is a seven year old, like showing me what's up [59:57] right now. That is amazing. I am proud because she's my daughter. But I also was embarrassed [60:02] because she was right. The younger generation. That's what I'm trying. That's exactly what [60:06] I'm trying to say is that I could have squashed it to keep myself on top. Yeah. But let's see how [60:14] this pans out when she grows up. But I think that I hope for kids to be empowered that way [60:19] more often so that they know that they could do something in this world, whatever it is they [60:24] want to do. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. That's a beautiful moment. Wow. That is, I haven't even told Blake [60:29] that story. That is such a beautiful moment. Because what he walked into was a mess. [60:35] You know, it was, it didn't stay that beautiful. We, you know, it was difficult. It was a difficult [60:40] night. Yeah. But wow. Wow. That is a beautiful, beautiful story. I love that. Yeah. So we need [60:47] to listen to our younger generation. I mean, I learned from them. I think you and I too, [60:53] in different ways, we've had the privilege of being around a lot of young people [60:58] and listening to them and they are not our kids. And so I think because I've listened to and sat [61:04] with so many young people and so have you, especially through the changemaker days, [61:10] you know that they know something. So our kids do too. Right. And I believe that my work with [61:17] kids has helped me to have that real trust and respect for kids. And I think a lot of people [61:24] don't have real respect and trust in kids. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And that's how we were trained. [61:29] Blake and I were trained by Violet Oaklander and that was her whole promise was you respect kids [61:34] and they'll respect you. And not that you're seeking their respect. It's just that they deserve [61:40] respect. They deserve to be asked just like an adult if they, you know, a lot of times [61:46] people will walk into a home or something and they'll ask the parents like, do you want [61:50] anything to drink? Do you want, can I offer you something? But they don't think to ask the [61:53] kids. And it's not, I don't think people do it with any mal intent. It's just not like in the [62:00] consciousness. But the moment you ask a kid, do you, would you like something to drink in the [62:04] same way you ask the parents? They may say no, because they want to go play, but it makes them [62:08] feel like they matter and they're there too. And they're respected. Yeah. So it's little [62:13] things that I think make a really big difference. You know, even introducing yourself and shaking [62:18] hands with the kid, not all kids want to shake hands. Oh yeah. Sometimes they're like, [62:22] don't look at me, but you can just say, oh, nice to meet you too. Well, it's also that thing where, [62:27] you know, it's like, oh, you have to go give everybody a hug. Yes, that's a huge one. I mean, [62:31] I was guilty of it, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, you have to give everybody, [62:34] you have to go and say hello properly, you know, to give a hug and all that stuff. Respect. [62:39] Respect. But even, even like, it's not even just, yes, because of respect. It comes from, [62:43] yes, because of respect. Exactly. Because of respect doesn't mean that they don't respect [62:47] if they don't do that. But you know what? It's okay if they don't. Like, we have to learn that [62:52] that's not going to define them as a good kid or a bad kid, right? That's who they are and give [62:58] it their own time to do how they know how to do it, you know? So, but it's just, yeah, a lot of [63:03] those things. You know what I started doing? Because culturally, it's like, yeah, it's a thing. [63:09] You got to like, yeah, say hi and look in the eyes. So what I started doing was I would, [63:14] in front of the other person, I would give my kids the choices. Like, I want you to say hi to, [63:22] you know, so-and-so. You can wave, you can high five, you can hug them. It's up to you. Because [63:27] what I'm really saying to the elder is that I do, I respect you and I want my child to acknowledge [63:34] you, but they have a choice on how they do it. They don't need to kiss you. They don't need [63:38] to hug you. High five, pound, you know, wave. See, I wish I knew you and my kids were like four or [63:44] five years old. Okay, it's never too late. But here's the thing is the only reason I know that [63:50] is because of, one, my training and working with littles. And also I've seen how that can go [63:56] wrong really quickly. So fast, yes. You know, kids who have been abused, if they're forced [64:01] to kiss or hug anyone, it could just be so traumatic, you know? Or maybe not. Maybe the [64:07] message being like, you don't have to do anything with your body that you don't consent to, [64:13] including giving a hug or a kiss. But you do, you can still and you can still have the message that [64:22] I want to instill that you acknowledge, you know, people and say hi. You know, that's not too much [64:28] to ask. Like, I think my daughter is really shy, or at least she used to be, she's getting less [64:32] shy. She used to be. And so even just saying hi, but she would look down and say hi. Like, [64:37] but it was okay. It was good enough. And I'd say, yeah, thank you for saying hi. So that the adult [64:43] can understand I'm good enough. I'm, that's good enough for me. Yes. She said hi to you [64:48] in the way that she could. That's it. I'm not pushing her. I'm not going to make her look at [64:53] you yet. That was hard for her. And I'm proud of her. And what that does is it sets the [64:57] boundary. And it tells my daughter that not only did my mom just set a boundary for me. [65:05] Hopefully it tells her I can set a boundary for myself. Yeah. When I'm older. Yes. If I don't want [65:11] to be in a situation, I can set that boundary. Yeah. So I'm hoping that that'll translate. But [65:19] again, we will see. No, everyone's doing their best. Everyone's doing their best, [65:23] but it's, yeah, no, that's beautiful. That's, that's beautiful. That's special. [65:29] It's, it's again, if you, I'm going to actually interview my daughter in a podcast. [65:35] Oh, she's requested it. She's requested it. She said, I would like to be on your podcast. And [65:44] I said, okay, we'd love to have you on the engage podcast. What would you like to talk about? [65:49] And she said, I'd like to talk about what it's like to be a seven year old. [65:52] And I was like, wow, cool. Because we need to know. Yeah, we need to know because it's been a [65:57] long time since I've been a seven year old. And guess what? It was different when I was a seven [66:01] year old. No, that's so true. And I told her like, I was different than you when I was seven. [66:06] And I was, I was shy and scared. And she's shy, but I don't think she's scared. [66:15] Like I was not in the same way as at least. Well, she has you. Well, yeah, she, she has, [66:20] but she's also a different person than me. And I think that's what we have to remember. [66:24] No, but she's has you. What I mean, and that says she has you and Blake is you guys allow her to live [66:28] her authentic self. We're trying you allow her to show up as she is. And that gives her the [66:34] permission to be able to be bold. And when she needs to be right. And that gives her the [66:38] permission to, to be herself. Yeah, which is huge. You're right. And I would say we're [66:44] trying hard for that. And I, and I still have to say speaking of being vulnerable is that [66:48] there are moments where it's hard for me. Of course, I get like, there are things that come up [66:54] where I, I want to put her in a box, the box that I, the box that I feel comfortable in. [66:59] And I have to really work hard. So I just, I don't want it to sound like [67:04] rainbows and flowers, but it's like so easy because it's not, it's not. And I don't think [67:09] it's ever going to be easy. I shouldn't say it's never going to be easy. I shouldn't say [67:16] that. I should say that I want to take that back because now that my sons are grown adults now. [67:23] Yeah. And we've gone through a lot. Give me some hope. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. [67:27] We've gone through a lot of crap. There have been a lot of high volume conversations and all [67:32] of that stuff, right? It's been, it's been intense, right? To get us to the point we're [67:37] at right now. And we're not perfect by any means. But I will say it's pretty beautiful now [67:43] that, you know, my son goes on set and he wants me to be there to, or that wants me, he asks me [67:49] if I can come with him or allows me to come with him to take behind the scene footage of him or [67:54] help him with his hair and makeup or his styling, or wearing my wedding langa, which [68:01] is huge, right? And I guess that's what made me tear up when I saw that. And that's huge [68:06] because years ago, I don't know how I would have been because of society at all. In fact, [68:12] I know how I would have been because of society, right? But today for me to say that's an honor [68:17] and privilege that he wants to wear my wedding langa is like, so it does get easier because I [68:23] think that it gets easier because we four have been able to accept each other for who we are [68:29] and love each other for who we are and embrace each other for who we are, you know? So when [68:35] he calls me on set for that or my older one comes and gives me a hug and, or on the other [68:41] side is able to communicate me, my son is able to say, mom, listen, this is what I need from you [68:46] and this is what made me upset and this would mean, and I'm like, wow, we've come a long way. [68:51] And it allows you to show up then. And it allows me to show up. And I'm able to communicate [68:55] also, right? But to be able to have my sons now be my friends. That's really, really cool. [69:02] And like not have arguments. Well, how old are they? They're in their 20s. 23 and 27. [69:08] Yeah. So they're adults. And it's, but yes, but sometimes... [69:12] They still need you. No, not still need you, but sometimes when you get adults, [69:16] I will never take it for granted that my kids want to be with me or hang out with me. [69:21] It's not, it's an honor and privilege. I don't expect it, right? And so the fact that they [69:27] do want me to meet their friends at 23 and 27 year old and I'm close to a lot of their [69:32] friends. That's cool. For me, I feel very honored and privileged that I've earned it. [69:36] But again, you built that. Yeah, you earned it. I've earned it. I've earned it, right? I don't, [69:42] you know, I don't expect it. It's not an expectation because they're grown adults now, right? [69:48] Yeah, you build it. What happened, I'm going to guess what happened is you didn't let them down [69:51] along the way. So now... Yes. And I changed along the way. You were willing to change. [69:57] I was willing to change. And they're going through their own journey, right? Like my older [70:00] son will tell me, mom, you've changed, but I have to unlearn a lot of things that you [70:04] had told me when you're younger. I'm like, oh, I can't do anything about that one. [70:07] Work on it. Yeah. It's your deal to work on it, you know? Yeah. But yeah, [70:11] we've grown and changed with each other, you know, just like in a relationship, [70:14] you got to grow and change all the time, right? Yeah. And that's what's beautiful, [70:20] but you're right. It's also hard. It's hard. But you know what? I think it's easier when [70:25] you have a little help from your friends. So that's where I really enjoy always talking to [70:32] you. And, you know, I remember when I had my daughter, literally, you came to see me when she [70:38] was newborn. And you said to me, don't forget about date nights. Don't forget. And I just [70:45] remember being like, Harsha, what? So random. I just had a baby. Like what do you... And you [70:51] said that and you said it like three times. I was like, okay. So I told Blake and he's like, [70:57] yeah, add... Because I have a tendency to just, I don't know, tunnel vision. Like I forget about [71:02] prioritizing myself and my relationship. And it's really helped throughout the years. I have your [71:09] voice in my head when Blake's like, I want to go to dinner. I want to take you out. I want to [71:13] have time with just us that like we're not talking about work. And that's not in my nature. [71:19] My nature is I just like when it comes to my... Like I'm talking about boundaries. It's [71:27] transitioned to home. But I've gotten better with the help of, you know, Blake holds a good boundary, [71:32] but really think hearing your voice in my head. And that's like seven years ago now. And I still, [71:38] you remember? I remember. It was very good. And you came and you're like, you like my bathroom. [71:42] I remember it. I feel like I'm in a spa in your bathroom. And not even that was a [71:46] huge compliment for me because I was like, oh, she likes my bathroom. That made me feel good. [71:50] So anyway... I still think about that bathroom, the spa. It looks exactly the same. Not much [71:55] has changed. But anyway, like what I'm trying to say is I've always enjoyed your friendship and your [72:01] companionship and also your advice and your hope. So what you're sharing about your grown kids, [72:07] you know, they're in adulthood and how you're still in the journey and you're still learning [72:11] with them and you're still doing things, but that maybe it can get easier is really inspiring. [72:18] So thank you. Thank you just for being you. And thank you for sharing so much today. [72:24] I think we were both pretty vulnerable. And I think it's because it's you that I can just, [72:29] you know, talk. So thank you for trusting me and for sharing with our audience about all this, [72:35] because, you know, this podcast is built for our community. We really want to support [72:41] parents and professionals in our community. Maybe other people will hear it too, [72:45] but really the purpose is to bring us all closer and to remember that we're all holding [72:50] each other up. So thank you for being here. Thank you. Thank you, Adelina and Blake, [72:56] for everything you guys are doing and have been doing for many years. And Ajith and I would not [73:01] be the people we are today if it wasn't for the two of you in our life. I mean, we have reached [73:06] out to you many times throughout the last few years. And what you do for the community, [73:12] what you do, you're all heart and it's so beautiful. You know, behind, I can't even [73:18] imagine how much time, effort, mental, physical load it is on you. Because it's not only about [73:25] your family, it's about thousands of other families. It's the bigger impact. And [73:29] just thank you for what you're doing for the community. And, you know, [73:33] Ajith and I would be thrilled and so excited for my win. Engage is in every school system. [73:39] It's in every corporation. It is everywhere because that's what the world needs. And the [73:47] walk the walk and talk the talk. You live your values every day. It shines through you every [73:54] single day. And you both are just amazing. And, you know, Ajith and I talk about finding those [74:01] expert companions in your life. Oh, I like that. And yeah, expert companions your life in different [74:06] areas of your life. And, you know, we feel the same way about you and Blake as being our [74:13] expert companions. So together we'll change the world, you know, and we'll let our our kids [74:18] fly and be able to change the world in their way. And we're doing our part. And we're doing our part. [74:24] Your words mean so much to me. And Blake, thank you. I appreciate it. And I hope maybe we can [74:30] do this again. Yes. Love it. Love it. Thank you.