Mindful Beginnings, From a Parent’s Chair — Janet Bayramyan, LCSW

[0:00] I didn't realize that was one of the learnings for me that I was kind of also very hovering [0:05] over him at times and so learning that I just needed to take a step back to and just allow [0:11] him to sort of be and so the reason why I'm bringing this up is because I feel like with [0:16] mindful beginnings like we're starting the foundation now to allow parents to just [0:21] be more emotionally open or available so that that doesn't hopefully happen to future [0:27] generations. [0:28] Maybe especially when we talk about discipline and boundaries to be able to think about not [0:33] just boundaries that you teach your child but boundaries that you teach other adults in your [0:39] life. [0:39] Yeah. [0:41] Welcome to Look for the Helpers, a podcast by Engage Therapy in Agoura Hills, California. [0:48] Hosted by Adelina Brisbois, licensed marriage and family therapist and her husband, Dr. [0:54] Blake Brisbois, licensed psychologist. [0:58] Thanks for being here. [1:01] That's okay. [1:02] Okay. [1:03] Hi. [1:03] I'm Peggy. [1:04] I am the director of parent services at Engage and welcome Janet. [1:10] Thank you. [1:11] And it's good to have you. [1:12] Really it's good to see you because I haven't seen you in a few weeks. [1:15] No, it's good to see you. [1:16] It really is. [1:18] And I want to be able to talk about both of our experiences doing mindful [1:24] beginnings but from different perspectives. [1:27] So for me, being a facilitator of the group and you being a big participant in the group [1:33] and your child. [1:36] So maybe we can start with what it was like for you to be there for the 10 weeks. [1:45] So it was a really beautiful experience. [1:48] It was really eye-opening because I'm also a therapist so I feel like I know a lot. [1:54] And then doing the 10 weeks, I realized I don't know a lot as much as I thought. [1:59] But maybe it's because you're there as a mom. [2:02] Correct. [2:03] Yeah. [2:03] I don't have my therapist hat on as much. [2:07] So I just kind of realized doing the 10 weeks, just a lot of the things that maybe I wasn't [2:13] aware of about myself as a parent and I wasn't always thinking about the generational stuff [2:20] that was happening like with my own parents and how they parented and how that kind [2:25] of translated into parenting with my son. [2:28] So I just felt like it was incredibly eye-opening. [2:32] I learned so much about myself and certain gaps in my experience. [2:37] And then it was also beautiful just to have my son in the program and like watch him interact [2:43] with the other kids in the program so it was lovely. [2:46] So how do you think he changed over time? [2:50] I think so I learned in the program that he's a slow to warm temperament and I felt like [2:56] I already had that feeling about him but it was helpful to really go over that and translate [3:01] it and I think he changed because he was always and still I guess is to some degree [3:09] like very, very cautious and very like wants to be very, very close to mom frequently. [3:16] And so as the program progressed I just saw him gain a little bit more independence like [3:22] he was comfortable being on the other side of the room not always clinging to me. [3:27] So that was also really fun to watch too. [3:31] Yeah and I think from a facilitator perspective watching one you be able to stand back [3:40] and let him separate even though y'all were in the same space and then to watch him learn [3:48] how to interact with the other children in the group and the other adults in the group. [3:53] But he would check back but could go and really wanted to go on his own and you could [4:00] support that because then you were supported. [4:03] Absolutely yeah it was I didn't realize that was one of the learnings for me that I [4:07] was kind of also very hovering over him at times and so learning that I just needed [4:13] to take a step back too and just allow him to sort of be and you know if he was clumsy [4:20] in a moment that's okay I could support him thereafter or if he needed to work out [4:25] you know toy sharing with a child like let them work it out for a moment and see how it goes. [4:31] And how he could move from like object to object but I think about his favorite. [4:37] Object in the room the crib yes little playpen with the bassinet and his [4:42] fascination and interest and he could go explore that on his own. [4:47] So you both grew yes in that space yes what did you think about the curriculum. [4:54] I really enjoyed it I loved how it was broken down I love that each week we've [4:59] sort of focused on a topic and an area that you know we needed to maybe think [5:05] about a little bit more deeply we had homework you know just to consider [5:09] throughout the week so I really enjoyed it I felt like it was a really good pace. [5:13] So how has it been since the class has ended and you know you're out in the [5:21] world without the class now. [5:22] Yeah so I feel like for me I still think about the class and I still take [5:29] the learnings from the class like for example I know I talked about this [5:32] in the class but for whatever reason just like playing with my son was very [5:38] challenging for me just doing that free play. [5:41] I was so shocked that that was one of my experiences because I thought I would [5:44] be like very natural at that. [5:46] So now at home like when I'm done with work when it's just the two of us I [5:53] really try to be in his world and do that free play with him. [5:58] You know I try to have like all my distractions away like phone and stuff [6:03] like that and so I try to be mindful of the free play and then also one of the [6:08] other things that I know you helped us hone in on was just validating our [6:13] kids frustrations and not just moving in and fixing it like that was [6:17] another big takeaway for me. [6:19] So anytime he gets frustrated I just try to validate you know like honey I [6:23] see that you're upset right now I see that you know I put you in the [6:27] high chair and you didn't like that. [6:28] So I really try to continue and incorporate that. [6:33] That's nice and that's part of the program is that it's 10 weeks but then [6:38] you internalize it and then take those things with you along the way which [6:44] is really nice. [6:46] Yeah good to hear. [6:46] Yeah do you notice it in your relationship at all being able to [6:52] use some of the reflective practices. [6:55] When you say relationship you mean with your partner. [6:59] Yeah I feel like we talk about it quite a bit more like yesterday I was out of [7:07] the house and my husband sent like a video of them playing together and I [7:12] gave my husband feedback because I was like you know I don't I don't know [7:16] if I if I like that and I explained you know my reasoning for whatever it [7:22] was that was going on and so I feel like we just sort of talk about it and I [7:28] even bring up his temperament a lot with my husband we talk about it because [7:34] we you know we like to go out and we go to different places and different [7:37] settings with our son and you know he's not necessarily like the the other [7:43] temperament is feisty we talked about where like they're just free and they [7:48] can be in new environments so I talk about that a lot with my husband too [7:53] like how we want to be supportive of him in different settings with different [7:57] people so yeah I feel like it's just a constant conversation that's good [8:03] yeah because then you have taken it with you and you can use it in like all [8:08] places in your life in relationships which is totally totally it's really [8:14] good yeah very good do you have any thoughts about anything that should be [8:20] different in the program since it was the first time we've done that program gosh [8:25] for the parents yeah or just you know in the setting mm-hmm I don't know I have [8:34] to really think about that one I guess for me because what my specialty as a [8:40] therapist is trauma I do a lot of trauma work attached that includes attachment [8:45] trauma so I feel like maybe a lot of those conversations came up with myself and [8:51] some of the other participants uh-huh yeah so maybe even just a discussion [8:56] around like the attachment trauma piece I guess because I think I think a lot of [9:03] us in the program we're really trying to be not only mindful but break [9:08] certain cycles right so I patterns yeah a behavior exactly so I feel like maybe [9:13] even just talking about like the trauma component I don't know if that could be [9:17] helpful or not well yeah because it's part of attachment so then if you think [9:21] about how attachment shows up in trauma it's a good idea to include it thank [9:27] you in the curriculum yeah and everybody did talk about that somebody did [9:33] throughout their life totally I can recall so many conversations is there [9:40] anything else that you would want either Jessica and I to know about facilitating [9:48] the program if there's anything that we could do better as facilitators I think [9:54] you all did great actually and actually one thing that I wanted to point out [9:59] and maybe this can be like an additional topic or discussion but I also think [10:05] another outcome of the mindful beginnings 10 weeks for me is that I've also set [10:10] more boundaries with my parents you know yeah and I and I think not only just [10:18] boundaries with our son but just boundaries between my dynamic with [10:24] them you know and just things that I've realized that I've tolerated that [10:28] I don't want to tolerate anymore so that was another like really I would say [10:33] powerful outcome for me and so I don't know if that could be like a discussion [10:38] to have you know in future mindful beginnings cohorts yeah I like being [10:43] able to how you set boundaries as an adult with parents especially because [10:47] we're talking about multi-generational you know results of [10:51] attachment that's not yeah maybe especially when we talk about discipline [10:57] and boundaries to be able to think about not just boundaries that you teach your [11:02] child but boundaries that you teach other adults in your life yeah okay is there [11:10] anything else that you would like for me to know I mean just positive things [11:17] like it was such a safe space for me and our son and it's just really sweet [11:24] I'm still kind of grieving the ending I know I was gonna say Tuesdays aren't the [11:29] same they're not the same yeah and I was even mentioning you know when when it [11:35] ended that I also would love to do a cohort again at some point maybe in a [11:41] few months I don't know just because it was powerful and I'm sure I can get [11:45] continued learning from just repeating the course too well and I think the [11:50] more I I've taught it for a long time but that I always learn something [11:55] different every class that I teach I think it's true yeah we miss y'all yeah well [12:03] thanks for talking about mindful beginnings thank you it's good to see [12:07] you and good to talk with you anyway I'm really excited to talk with you [12:13] formally today even though we were always talking about our experience [12:18] together in mindful beginnings so that's the the program that we have here at [12:24] Engage for the for new parents and it's based off of reflective parenting which [12:29] is a 10-week course that is really embedded in attachment theory and so [12:36] this is really exciting for us because it's a new way to do what we're already [12:40] doing which is reflective parenting but with parents of little ones so walking [12:46] to about two years old and it's really different because we get to bring our [12:52] little ones with us so I'm really excited to talk with you because we got to do a [12:59] cohort together and I think it was really amazing and you know I've been [13:06] around reflective parenting which is that the base curriculum for a decade [13:11] now I've taught it I've been trained by Peggy I did it at schools I've [13:16] done it at other sites we do it at Engage with our programs and I've I've seen [13:23] transformations in front of my eyes so I believe in the curriculum wholeheartedly [13:27] but to be a participant was completely different and to your point I know we've [13:34] talked about this before I was just shocked at how much I didn't know even [13:38] though I know the curriculum and I you know I'm a therapist I work with [13:42] kids I know that I don't know everything but I didn't realize how much [13:46] I didn't know about myself is the part that shocked me and then being able to [13:53] yeah bring your baby and your partner I was lucky it lucky enough that my [13:57] partner was able to join me in it and how much we learned about each other [14:02] during the time and how that reflects as you know as parents of the same kid so [14:08] I guess I just wanted to like reflect a little bit with you about yeah I [14:15] guess being a parent mm-hmm and being a therapist and how that showed up in in [14:22] the course for us and then also if we can and maybe we take our therapist hats off [14:28] for a minute yeah and just be the moms yeah because I met you before this [14:32] cohort we've done other mom things together mm-hmm and it's always been [14:37] so nice to just have like a base you know someone that's for me safe and [14:43] familiar yeah so yeah I guess I'd love to hear from you yeah I think I want to [14:50] answer that question but I I want to actually speak to your point about [14:54] meeting you before we did mindful beginnings so we did like mommy and me [15:00] classes and those were nice they were really lovely it was a beautiful space [15:05] I felt like for the kids and my son but I when I reflect on my experience in [15:12] mommy and me classes and just different mommy and me programs out there I kind of [15:17] always felt like something was missing like we would talk a lot about our [15:22] babies and just the different milestones they're working on and things like [15:26] that but I feel like the mom experience kind of got lost at times and we would [15:33] never necessarily really go deep and dive into how is mom feeling about all [15:40] this how is mom doing just in general with like this like crazy life change [15:46] that just happened you know like I feel like a lot of the programs we were in [15:51] like just mainly focused on kids and their milestones and so when I did the [15:56] program with you the mindful beginnings program it was such a breath [16:00] of fresh air because I felt like it was reverse like we weren't talking [16:04] necessarily about their milestones we were talking about our milestones [16:08] moving into parenthood and like attachment and all the different things [16:12] that were going on so it was just so amazing because I really appreciate [16:18] going deep and I know not everybody does true but it was really impactful [16:24] for me to be able to just talk about my experience in that new motherhood [16:29] phase and the different parenting things going on because I just didn't [16:33] necessarily feel like I had a space to really talk about it before this oh my [16:38] gosh you said it so well that's true yeah it's and you know what else I'm [16:45] remembering I'm going I'm thinking back to it was like summer I think when we [16:48] started the mommy and me class and I remember feeling like I had to get [16:59] ready and like I don't know present myself well because I felt like [17:04] that's what it what that's what the world and society gives us like okay you just [17:11] had this baby and no big deal just get right back on and live your life and [17:16] be on time and look great at you know like like nothing happened and meanwhile [17:21] you're not sleeping you're struggling you're going through this whole [17:24] emotional change not just physically but emotionally too and you're right it [17:30] was so awesome to do these different classes that we did together and this the [17:37] focus even if the focus is on us a little bit it's not going deep and I [17:43] think what what you and I probably were craving and what we got in mindful [17:48] beginnings was not just what's going on now but actually thinking about what [17:53] has happened before that brings us to now right and you know I know your [18:00] specialty is trauma and you mentioned how you know there's different types of [18:04] trauma there was big T little T traumas so sometimes we can know what our blind [18:10] spots are when they're big T's like okay I had this huge major thing and so we've [18:15] we've done the work maybe in our own therapy great fine not fine those are [18:21] things but I just feel like those are taken care of sometimes yeah but it's the [18:25] little T's that show up when you have a new baby because we are depleted sometimes [18:31] our partners are also doing their best and depleted in their own way and this [18:35] poor baby just needs us yes and so why why what I think happened for me in this [18:42] 10 weeks was I had shown the light on the little T's yeah that I think I've [18:48] been dealing with my whole life and kind of I don't want to say masking but maybe [18:52] like what's the better word like just like white knuckling through it and not even [19:00] naming it as any kind of trauma you know but then this course I think really [19:08] makes you slow down yeah and I don't do that very well I don't think a lot of [19:13] moms do that very well yeah exactly and before you're a mom you don't [19:16] know what you don't know mm-hmm you don't know what those things are that's good [19:19] that are gonna come up mm-hmm but then we're in it it's live and it's happening [19:25] and you know like I think I'm blessed I have a lot of support and I still felt [19:31] like so alone mm-hmm you know you yeah so if it's that's why I think it's [19:38] important to have other moms that like when you would share I remember when [19:41] you would share I would be like oh well that gives me not only so much [19:45] insight on I didn't even know that's how I was feeling mm-hmm but Janet just said [19:49] this thing and it it relates I relate to it yeah and then there was another [19:54] person in our cohort that when she would speak I felt like I understood my [19:59] partner better mm-hmm like she would speak and it just reminded me of I'm [20:03] like I think that's what Blake feels like mm-hmm but for some reason when she [20:07] said it I could hear it differently yeah then if he says that to me because I [20:12] don't know she's like a fellow mom and so she's going through that it just feels [20:15] more normal right and it it made me feel a little bit more patient with him like [20:22] mm-hmm and also with my kids mm-hmm yeah I agree with that I felt the exact same [20:29] way when certain things were presented by the other moms it did make me think [20:33] about my husband's experience and he's actually said to me you know I don't [20:39] know if a lot of like society or people talk about what dads go through after [20:43] having a baby so we've had some of those conversations but I totally agree you [20:50] know like I talked about with Peggy right like that one week where I realized [20:53] like I don't sit down and play with my baby and you know she very thoughtfully [20:59] always asks us where do you think that comes from and that's likely my [21:04] childhood right like I don't remember my parents ever really playing with me I [21:08] had to sort of play and have my own imagination myself and so it made me [21:13] think like huh was that maybe one of those like little like attachment little [21:18] tea traumas that I went through that I had to like sort of learn how to play [21:22] by myself right you know so I agree with you I really felt like it forced [21:26] us to slow down and look at some of the like little nuanced things that [21:31] maybe we didn't realize before the course or even before having our babies [21:36] yeah and the reason I think it's so cool to have this opportunity now is because [21:40] we do work with teenagers in our program right at Engage and it's teenagers [21:45] preteens young adults that they're not doing well they're like more severe [21:49] mental health in terms of their symptoms and stuff and I think could we [21:55] maybe prevent some of that by supporting parents now and like if I can see what [22:01] my blind spots are and if I can be a better parent perhaps that will help my [22:07] kids have more skills to be more preventative of the of the hardcore [22:14] challenges that are inevitable right like adolescents is just hard yes and [22:19] we're not there yet you know our kids aren't there yet but if we can give [22:22] them a strong base then I do have hope that we can have a better [22:29] generation you know yeah when they get there absolutely let's hope yes we'll [22:35] talk in ten years and see but yes I can't imagine my only thing is I hope I [22:40] don't forget all the stuff and so you mentioned you wanted to do the course [22:44] again and I the thing is I've I've never been a participant but I've done [22:48] it so many times it's just I learned something different every time yeah [22:51] because it's about reflecting on your own experience mm-hmm you know [22:56] someone someone asked me because the name reflective parenting is it just am I [23:01] just gonna have to reflect everything that my parent that my kids says to me [23:05] and so not that right it's about actually us reflecting on why is this [23:10] bothering me yes like one thing that happened to me I don't know if you [23:14] remember but I had an epiphany to when Peggy asked me a question I don't [23:19] remember the exact question but it was I think it was about anger maybe or I [23:25] was about I don't remember what the subject was that week but my daughter and [23:32] I get in these like kind of we don't it's not like a screaming match I guess it's [23:37] kind of a screaming match okay but we get escalated both of us and one week I [23:42] realized that that escalated state triggers me mm-hmm and I turn into like [23:47] the little girl it's being yelled at mm-hmm and then I don't behave like [23:51] adult because I feel like this someone's yelling at me and so once I realized [23:57] that her yelling was a trigger for me it changed and now she yells and instead of [24:03] me getting triggered I'm like oh yeah see this is this is this is her having an [24:08] experience this is not about you mm-hmm and so I like like yesterday I picked her [24:12] up from school and she's like yelling at me for no reason and normally I [24:16] would be like you can't yell at me because I wasn't allowed to yell at my [24:19] parents mm-hmm you know forget about it I'd be in trouble mm-hmm if I talked to my [24:24] parents like she was talking to me but I was able to stay calm and I was able to [24:30] recognize like she had a bad day mm-hmm something happened they she's not yelling [24:34] at me because I did anything right and so I stayed calm and I gave her some [24:38] love and she turned it around like like just like that and I'm driving you [24:45] know to our dentist appointment and I'm thinking that felt like magic you know [24:51] it's not magic yeah I did something different but it felt like magic is it [24:56] just she just stopped she just you gave her what she needed in that moment yeah [25:02] yeah it was so simple yeah and I think that's what that's my hope right is [25:09] that when parents do this class they can apply it to other situations like [25:15] she's seven you know she wasn't the one in mindful beginnings but but it wasn't [25:19] about her it was about me yeah me getting sugar and I and I have a similar [25:24] kind of epiphany specifically about anger because I know we did mm-hmm I don't [25:29] even think one week maybe two weeks on anger where we were talking about it [25:33] and in my childhood experience and I think many people might relate I wasn't [25:38] allowed to be angry yes not allowed to misbehave I had to be like very [25:44] disciplined and focused and of course I've learned through the course that it [25:49] was just because my parents could not tolerate or know how to manage anger they [25:55] had probably their own poor role models for anger and so with my son Tino like [26:01] same thing he would get frustrated or wine you know because he's not fully [26:06] talking yet and that would just trigger me I'd be like what is happening like [26:10] why why is he angry I just need to go and fix it right and so now I do my best to [26:17] just allow him to have his whiny moments feel frustrated and angry and do my best [26:23] to validate and I and I want to say and I don't know if you've noticed this I [26:27] don't even want to call it a trend because it's not a trend but like on [26:30] social media right now there's a lot of talk on like young adults or adults [26:36] being now estranged from their parents yes I've seen this yes because they're [26:41] making these decisions to be estranged yeah it's not a trend I don't like that [26:46] people are calling it a trend but I think you know there's there's more [26:50] awareness on some of those like little tea traumas that you talked about where [26:54] a lot of you know our maybe generation of parents they were emotionally [27:00] immature they were not you know capable of let's say validating or [27:05] providing the emotional intentional support so the reason why I'm bringing [27:10] this up is because I feel like with mindful beginnings like we're starting [27:13] the foundation now to allow parents to just be more emotionally open or [27:19] available so that that doesn't hopefully happen to future generations it [27:24] doesn't keep going yes yes you know what else I think I for me at least I [27:30] think it also helps because yeah you know how you said our parents maybe didn't [27:35] have the tools there's a lot of reasons they may not have had the tools you [27:39] know culture is maybe one piece I know in in my family it is and what I love [27:47] about the curriculum is that it's actually a cross culture that's been [27:50] empirically valid across cultures so that gives me a sense of because a lot [27:55] of times growing up I would have this feeling of like oh yeah that's great [27:59] for everyone else but that doesn't apply to me sure because my parents are not [28:03] from here so that it doesn't apply but I would say and I think that's why I'm [28:08] so obsessed with this curriculum is that it does apply and I've done it with [28:12] parents from all over the world that are immigrants and not from here and [28:17] really don't have a sense of mental health as like something we talk [28:20] about yeah and yet they still are able to apply these things so number [28:25] one number two is this epiphany I had that the limitations that our parents [28:33] had could also be from their own trauma mm-hmm and that was like whoa for me [28:39] that was a huge piece that it's not always a choice we don't always make a [28:44] choice to be on a disengaged from connection oftentimes it's a response [28:52] from trauma unresolved trauma mm-hmm or maybe just like the amount of trauma [28:58] the acuity of it is like human nature to just separate yeah you know so that was [29:05] a big piece for me to realize and to hold and to have empathy for that you [29:10] know and that's the other piece it's not we're not judging and that's what I [29:15] love about how it's all presented I never felt like my upbringing was [29:19] judged or like there was something bad about it it just is it just was and I'm [29:25] here today with whatever that was you know and you and everyone else in the [29:29] group but then our kids same thing they're gonna be our age and they're [29:35] gonna be able to identify things that we did right that worked and didn't [29:40] work right and I think that I hope for our society that there's a way that [29:45] we can all just have a room for that totally and say look everyone was doing [29:49] the best with what they had whatever that means mm-hmm whether it's because [29:54] that's how they were taught or that's what society told them or culture or [29:58] religion or trauma you know like lived experiences because I think that the [30:04] world would be a kinder place if we could do that yeah and I also want [30:09] to say I just feel like it's never too late yeah like even if your kids are [30:14] older or even if your kids are adult kids right I don't know I don't I don't [30:18] feel like it's ever too late to be able to make that change I was watching a [30:23] video last night again with this whole you know common theme that's [30:28] happening right now with people being estranged a lot of I would say adult [30:33] children are remaining estranged is because their parents aren't being [30:36] curious aren't doing the work right they're not being self-reflective [30:42] and they're not being curious about their adult child's experience and and you [30:47] know that was what we were doing we were just being curious about our own [30:51] parenting our own childhoods right if you can just be curious like lean into that [30:57] a little bit more that will absolutely in my opinion start to hopefully shift [31:02] things for people yeah because then again just like how we we give our kids [31:07] a pet like my example in the car yesterday right me giving my daughter [31:11] the benefit of the doubt just shifted how defensive she had to be right okay she's [31:16] seven but if I'm an adult if anybody approaches me that way gives me the [31:22] benefit of the doubt I'm gonna I'm gonna be warmer yeah gonna be softer yeah so [31:27] to your point it's never too late and well that's what we know about [31:31] attachment actually that's one of the things that attachment research has [31:34] very consistently and for a long time shown that it is never too late and [31:39] repairs you know there's a rupture and there's a repair and that has been [31:44] empirically also supported that that can really shift someone's safety in the [31:50] world and feeling like they're okay they belong so you're right it is never [31:56] too late and actually the one thing that came out of all this is that Peggy [32:02] is gonna start a grandparent support group for this reason amazing because [32:07] we're we're finding that there are some grandparents that are very interested in [32:12] having a better relationship with their with their whether it's their grown [32:16] kids or their grandkids or both sometimes that comes together a good [32:21] relationship with your kids oftentimes you have a better relationship with your [32:25] grandchildren and she's a grandma so she feels strongly about that so that's [32:30] one thing and then actually because of you and you're pointing out about the [32:34] dad's really needing support you know dads are welcome to come to mindful [32:41] beginnings not just dads or moms just partners in general that's how we built [32:46] it because we know that when two people are raising a child then if they're on [32:51] the same page it's gonna be smoother right but what you what you pointed out [32:55] and I think what kind of came out organically throughout the group was [32:58] that dads have a different struggle than maybe we do and there's also parents [33:06] that are you know like two moms and two dads and it's not necessarily that it's [33:12] a mom's struggle and a dad's struggle but maybe a primary caregiver and you [33:16] know the person who's not the primary caregiver and sometimes if there's two [33:20] primary caregivers there's other things that would come up right so just [33:25] basically being able to support all the people that need the support in that [33:29] important time so that's another thing that we hope to do is to offer a dad [33:34] group and also what came up was maybe it would be more comfortable because I [33:43] can't speak for Blake but he was I think the only dad in his cohort and you [33:48] know I might I think it might feel more comfortable if you're not worried [33:52] that you're gonna upset or offend someone in the group sure that excuse me [34:01] that we're hoping to like work on okay I think the other piece that I would like [34:11] to hear your opinions on because when I'm talking to people about mindful [34:15] beginnings it's really hard to explain sure because there's nothing like it [34:20] and so I can't compare it to something but now that you've done it maybe you can [34:25] speak to that a little bit yeah so the way that I've described it I said I've [34:31] said to people like look this is not your run-of-the-mill parenting class I [34:35] think in standard parenting classes you learn skills and then you're [34:42] encouraged to implement those skills and tools with your child which is [34:45] great totally great those are great which is great but I think personally [34:51] what's missing about that is sometimes we don't ask the parent how do you feel [34:56] about that skill or is that skill gonna work for you or did you ever get that [35:01] skill you know being raised in your family of origin right and so the way [35:07] that I talk about the class as I say it's about looking at how your parents [35:13] parented you which then impacts how you parent your child and so there is a yes [35:22] there is a reflection component you do think about your childhood with [35:26] discipline you do think about you know how your parents processed anger with [35:31] you you think about play did your parents play with you so again you're [35:36] not just like with anger for example you're not just taught how to manage [35:40] anger when your child is angry you're taught about well how do you feel about [35:45] anger how was anger processed with you were you allowed to feel angry growing [35:50] up and so how does it feel for you to now implement let's say validating your [35:56] child when your child is so I just tell people that it's like it's it's [36:03] double right like you learn the skill but you also learn about yourself and [36:07] you learn about gaps within yourself I don't know if that's a helpful way to [36:11] explain it is it is and I'm thinking about my own experience right now as a [36:15] participant and you know the facilitators never told us what to do and I [36:22] think that's refreshing because I think as a new parent you're constantly [36:26] getting advice you know do this don't do that do it this way oh I did it like [36:31] this everyone likes to tell you about how they did their thing and they [36:36] mean it well and sometimes it is helpful right but in this setting I'm thinking I [36:41] was never told what to do I was always asked what I think to your point and and [36:49] you can take that with you when you think about what's going on for you it [36:53] can apply to different situations right like the example I gave about my [36:58] daughter getting the car eventually she was able to say to me mama I had a [37:02] day and I had already figured that out but the fact that she said it almost [37:07] validated like okay you're going on the right direction here yes but like there [37:13] was an example I don't know if you remember one week Peggy asked about like [37:17] a distressing thing that happened and that day I had a really hard time getting [37:22] my baby in the car seat yes I remember yeah I remember and I was I came in I was [37:27] like in a bad mood about it like I was frustrated because it wasn't about the [37:31] car seat it was about everything that led up to that and I was gonna be late and [37:36] did the day and then she didn't tell me what to do but she asked me a series of [37:41] questions that made me think and I remember walking down the stairs of [37:46] this office and saying to him okay we're gonna get in the car seat now [37:53] and it when we get to the car we're gonna get in your car seat and I can [37:57] put you in the seat or you could put yourself in the seat mm-hmm and he looked [38:02] at me like he understood which that's another thing I don't think it people [38:06] understand how much kids understand yes but that was one moment where I realized [38:12] okay he I think he just registered what I said yeah but I wasn't sure so we get [38:16] to the car I hope I'm like okay and I repeated it you know you can go in [38:21] or I can put you in and he put himself in the seat amazing and first of all I [38:29] didn't know he could do that I actually didn't know he had the ability to do [38:32] that yeah and he let me buckle him in mm-hmm and that's another time where I [38:38] felt like this is magic yes this is magic I have a similar example you do [38:44] what was your I think I I think one of the weeks where we were talking about [38:48] like a perpetual problem I think we were having like a sleep trouble oh yes uh-huh [38:52] with our with my kid and he's normally actually a very decent sleeper but for [38:56] whatever reason right he was waking up in the middle of the night something was [39:00] happening or he wouldn't fall asleep yes I think that was the issue so I [39:04] remember Peggy had taught us about just explain to your child like what's [39:10] going on like what what is the plan for let's say that afternoon or evening [39:14] and I just remember like what what I was trying to do for you know it just he [39:19] just wasn't going to sleep he was getting antsy and so one night I said to him I [39:25] said Tino it's time for sleep mama's gonna put your pajamas on you we're [39:31] gonna read a story you'll have your milk and then mama's gonna put you in [39:34] the crib and you're gonna go to sleep like I literally just narrated [39:37] everything yes and so we had our routine like we did our regular [39:44] routine and then I said okay it's time for sleep you're safe mama's right outside [39:49] the door if you if you're crying I'm gonna come back in and so I literally like [39:54] laid him in his crib and it was silent and within maybe like I checked the [40:00] camera within maybe like 10 minutes he like soothed himself to sleep I was [40:04] like oh my gosh I just I just had to explain like what we were doing for the [40:10] evening it was wild right and I think a lot of people listening might be might be [40:16] thinking like this is a one-year-old he doesn't understand what you're saying and [40:19] I don't know maybe they don't understand fully but but it works but I think they [40:25] understand energy and and tone yes yes I think they understand like the emotion [40:31] behind maybe the words I agree I agree and you know what maybe they [40:35] understand more words than we think just because they can't respond because [40:40] now now my son is able to like say yeah or nod and we're shocked at how much he [40:47] can correctly respond to what he like do you want this or this you know and he'll [40:51] go like this and that's the one he wants but again it comes back to giving [40:57] kids more credit than I think most people give yeah yeah and and again [41:03] slowing down enough and also empowering the parent to say hey you can figure [41:09] this out again nobody told you you weren't given that script right right and [41:14] no one told me exactly what to do but I got so confident because I realized I [41:20] figured it out I did something by myself it was just me and him and it worked [41:25] yeah and then it kind of built and I was like okay I can do this next time [41:29] something happened a little difficult I'm like mm-hmm got this mm-hmm and the [41:34] more we practice the more we get strong and kids feel that too mm-hmm right they [41:40] feel our our sense of it's containing totally when the parent knows what they're [41:45] doing totally quote-unquote we don't know what we're doing but we we're trying and [41:48] we think we in that moment can feel like you're safe yeah in my hands mm-hmm [41:53] well I was gonna say like even in moments where I don't know what's [41:57] going on like he might be crying and like I have no idea what's happening [42:01] I remember Peggy's words she would say just just validate the experience to like [42:07] let him know that you see that he's distressed so I remember there was one [42:11] moment where I was like he was like I don't know if it was a tantrum or he was [42:15] just very uncomfortable and I just remember holding him as he was screaming [42:20] and saying you know I really see that you're distressed I'm here for you [42:24] we'll figure this out together I'm gonna hold you and see what happens and [42:29] then after just like a few minutes he totally calmed down and we figured out [42:33] what was going on he had gas you know yeah but just like just even a reminder like [42:40] even if you don't know what's happening in the moment if you can just narrate [42:44] and do your best to stay regulated that you don't have to have everything [42:47] figured out in that moment that was also just a very helpful tool same [42:51] because it is back to not judging right it we the mom guilt is real and we I [42:57] judge myself anyways right so if we can not add anything to that and maybe even [43:03] the practice of taking some of that out of our internal dialogue I think there's [43:08] so much strength in that and then another thing that comes up I think a lot [43:13] of people think well it's just that I just have a baby that there's no [43:17] problems like why would I do a parenting class you know I've heard [43:20] that too yeah and I actually really get the logic behind that except for I [43:26] think it's missing that's why I think explaining this course is so important [43:31] because it's missing this whole layer of it's actually not about like [43:35] necessarily parenting it's more about taking care of the parent mm-hmm and and [43:42] a good and it's like at the airplane and an airplane you know you put the [43:45] oxygen mask on yourself before and it's so counterintuitive right everything [43:50] about that feels wrong but when you think about it for two seconds you're [43:54] like well yeah if I'm passed out I'm not helping anyone right and I think it's [43:58] it's very similar in this way that it's not actually about the kids mm-hmm so you [44:05] know the kids in our group varied a little bit I mean it was like one year [44:09] mostly one year olds there was one person that I think had just turned to [44:13] mm-hmm and you could see that like everyone was in a different stage of [44:18] development and yet it worked because it wasn't so much about them as it was [44:24] about us with them mm-hmm so I think that's another piece that was really cool [44:29] to watch again as a participant yeah yeah and I think originally you know if the [44:37] kids are older we were thinking about having more time separate with the [44:42] kids but for our cohort since they were younger we had them with us the [44:46] whole time but it was fascinating to see the change in the kids over the over the [44:53] course of the weeks and how much more comfortable they got yeah and Peggy says [44:57] well it's because the parents got more comfortable mm-hmm which I can totally [45:01] see mm-hmm but I also want to say like there's a funny week that I think I [45:08] remember Peggy reminded us about that we reflected on we were talking about a [45:13] topic yeah yeah yeah anger right I was at the end we were all yeah and I just [45:17] remember all the kids were on the other side of the room yeah she pointed that [45:21] out she pointed that out not only that they were also coming apart a little bit [45:25] yes more than usual like the room was a mess like you're throwing things [45:29] everywhere so it just I don't know it just speaks to the fact that they [45:33] feel energy totally yeah and it's survival they're supposed to they [45:37] have to that's how they that's like how for years and years and years right [45:41] yeah if there's danger I need to know that I need to feel it you're my [45:45] litmus of what's going on yeah my caregiver so yeah and that's the whole point [45:49] of attachment mm-hmm right is that it's a secure attachment you feel safe in the [45:53] world it's not a secure attachment you don't feel safe in the world it's [45:57] really that simple mm-hmm and yet it's so complicated because sure what is safe [46:03] you know for sure we can be stressed about something that is really [46:07] illegitimate in terms of the kids safety absolutely yeah it's thank you for just [46:13] talking through this with me I feel like even just as we've been sitting here [46:17] talking it's been very helpful for me to think about not only as a [46:22] participant in this but also you know a future facilitator and really helping [46:28] to get the word across to our community I think selfishly my hope is [46:34] that you know my peers the people that I'm raising my kids with will take part [46:41] in this so that we can all kind of work together as our kids are growing up and [46:47] speak the same language and you know my idealistic view of it is that if my [46:53] kids friends have parents who are reflective then you know he's gonna [46:59] grow up or they're gonna grow up in a better environment yeah it's idealistic [47:07] I know but do your part you know well thank you is there anything else that you [47:16] would like to share with us about you because you do so much in our community [47:20] and part of this podcast is also highlighting you know the helpers that [47:27] are in our community so while we're coming together today to talk about our [47:30] mutual experience in this group there's so much you offer our community and by [47:36] term by way of therapy that I'd love if you could share with us a little bit [47:41] about that too yeah thank you well I mentioned I specialize in trauma and [47:47] so yeah it's not just you know the big T like you know physical or sexual [47:53] assault of course I work with that but I have to say I noticed that I do work [47:58] with a lot of adults that had or have still emotionally immature parents where [48:06] that experience still impacts them it still impacts how they feel how they [48:11] show up in the world their their current relationships their parenting you know [48:17] and I feel very passionate about this work and you know of course I I want [48:24] to support people in working through that but I think why I'm bringing that up [48:29] is because I just feel like if we support people earlier on and working [48:34] through that your adult children might not be there so I really I feel [48:40] passionate about supporting adult clients I have several therapists on my [48:46] team as well so we also work with teens and couples we all offer EMDR [48:52] brainspotting specifically for that more of that intensive trauma work EMDR also [48:59] changed my life that's another one that I feel like is like people have compared [49:03] it to magic like it's just like unbelievable how much it works I have [49:07] to share this story I don't and I hope it's helpful for people but when I [49:12] started my therapy my personal therapy journey I was in grad school at the [49:17] time and I remember my grad school did not speak favorably about EMDR it was [49:24] weird it was new maybe because it was new maybe because it wasn't as researched as [49:29] it is today and I remember the therapist that I was working with she's an [49:34] EMDR therapist and consistently recommended EMDR to me and you're [49:41] like this is pushy and I well and I declined it I was like EMDR that's [49:45] woo what do you mean you move eyes back and forth and like you're gonna get [49:49] better what are you talking about like I get too simple right it's too good to be [49:52] true too good to be true and I was like this is just weird I'm not into weird [49:55] stuff like that and our and our and my grad school was very evidence based [49:59] like CBT and all the cognitive interventions and I worked with my [50:04] therapist for a year but I wasn't feeling better and she finally like [50:09] challenged me a little bit and said like Janet just try it what do you have [50:14] to raise right you don't like it because she did it yeah exactly if you don't [50:19] like it we don't have to do it again and I and so we did the EMDR session and [50:24] like it was powerful it was magical I felt so different after the session the [50:31] next day wow yes I cannot even explain it and I then continued EMDR for like a [50:37] year to work through my own stuff and and then of course that you know in [50:44] inspired me to become an EMDR therapist because it yeah I'm so like you have a [50:48] lived experience of it yeah and so I I feel like I'm a person where I try to [50:56] work through my own stuff so that I can be there for my client so I love [51:01] again what the participation of mindful beginnings because now I feel so much [51:07] more equipped to work with moms to work with parents to even with you [51:12] know adult children right because now I feel like I can better share maybe what [51:17] was missing for them so I just feel like you know anything that I offer in my [51:24] practice I really tried to work on myself personally too yeah and you also I [51:30] know are into IFS right yeah that's all related to yeah the different parts you [51:36] maybe you can share a little bit about that yeah yeah so IFS internal family [51:40] systems the idea behind it is you know we all have multiplicity of parts [51:46] different parts to ourselves that show up in different arenas so for example like [51:51] here you guys are seeing my mom part you're seeing my clinician part and so I [51:57] love IFS because sometimes we have different parts that show up in our [52:02] lives that maybe we're not even aware of or conscious of like you were [52:05] saying in moments when you're triggered with your daughter right I [52:08] become like the little girl exactly as opposed to being the mom that's in [52:11] charge exactly yeah so I love IFS because it it helps clients and you know even for [52:17] me personally I realize when yeah maybe my inner child is coming forward right [52:23] and usually that happens because it's a trauma response it's a trigger it's an [52:28] experience that's unresolved that you know is brought forth to our [52:32] attention so I really love IFS too because it forces you to also reflect [52:38] and be aware of the different areas that are showing up in your life I don't know [52:43] if this was your experience but for me in grad school I remember learning all [52:47] the different modalities and be and one day having this moment of they're all [52:51] kind of similar even though they're different every all the modalities have [52:55] these themes that are really it's just the language that speaks to how we get [53:02] there but EMDR I do think is unique because it seems more physical than [53:09] than theory you know but like the IFS stuff it sounds very similar to [53:15] Gestalt work like the different parts of yourself and that's something that [53:20] we're trained in and so it makes sense you know and then somatic work [53:23] and how I also I had a therapist that was a somatically trained therapist by [53:29] Peter Levine and same thing I was like resistant resistant resistant and then [53:34] one day I did it and I was like I don't know what about this work but it worked [53:39] like it changed I was afraid I have like a fear of like animals being like [53:44] close to me and I live when I got married to Blake he had a cat and the [53:49] cat came with them and so I struggled a little bit and she was like come on let's [53:54] just let's do the you know the somatic work and guess what it helped yeah you [54:00] know I think it's interesting even just listening to both of our stories and [54:03] maybe this is why we get along so well because I think I relate to you there's [54:07] like this like a healthy stubbornness yeah you know I say healthy because I [54:12] think it's gotten me through life this this like strength of like no I'm [54:17] not gonna be convinced yeah but then this theme of when we just loosen up a [54:23] little we actually learn yeah and then benefit and how nice that is yes totally [54:29] so I think yeah I've said this to you before but I love being on this journey [54:33] with you as a mom but also in our community as a therapist because I [54:39] think what's so cool about our here Conejo Valley is that we really I think [54:45] support each other like I think clinicians are supportive and back each [54:51] other up and hold each other up you know I don't experience it as competitive or [54:56] cutthroat yeah I think you know we offer even if we don't offer offer something [55:01] different if we offer the same thing there's a lot of people that need all [55:04] of our help yes and you might be a better fit for some then then like [55:08] let's say me or the next person so also insurance like you guys take [55:13] insurance which I think is a really big deal because gives access to care yeah so [55:19] I really like I said I'm glad to know you as a person but also as a clinician and [55:24] thank you for the work that you do so such important work or you work with [55:31] adults right mostly you don't I work with adults but I have a team that [55:35] works with adolescents okay so there's people on your team that can see the [55:39] younger ones off I see I didn't even know that I'm glad I'm glad we talked [55:42] about it yeah I just always knew that you worked with adults because you work [55:45] with us yes okay cool that's good to know okay thank you