Threat Assessment & School Safety in the Conejo Valley

[00:00:00] Robert Scholz, LMFT: There, there are things that I say no to, um, either because there's like a too much of a personal connection to it, or maybe I'm, you know, both, either because I either know people that are involved in it. [00:00:14] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: You know, I, one of the things, another thing you taught me is that sometimes we don't ask the questions because we don't wanna hear the answer. [00:00:21] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: And that really helped me in sitting with, especially with kids, sometimes you don't wanna ask if they're, they wanna kill somebody because you, you're afraid that what the answer might be. [00:00:32] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. Remembering what the end result could look like and how it could look different to me is the rewarding part of what I do involved in these cases. [00:00:43] Narrator: Welcome to look for the Helpers, a podcast by Engaged Therapy in Agora Hills, California, hosted by Adelina Brisboy Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. And her husband, Dr. Blake Brisboy, licensed psychologist. Thanks for being here. [00:01:03] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: So why we wanted to do this podcast was because we realized that we have these really meaningful conversations with our peers all the time about all the things that we're all doing and how we're all helping. [00:01:16] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: And you know, Blake and I are why, the reason why we're in this field is to help people. Mm-hmm. And you know, Fred Rogers has this famous quote, at least it's famous to us about, um, when there's a crisis. His mom told him, when there's a crisis and you're looking at it on the news or you're there, look for the helpers. [00:01:36] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: There's always people running into the crisis to help. And he said that if the, if we could just focus a little bit more on that, that kids, especially ourselves as adults too, might hold a little bit more hope. For the future, that there's all these people that are going in to help when bad stuff happens. [00:01:55] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: And so that's why we wanna call our podcast Look for the Helpers, because we believe in that. We believe that we are always looking for helpers. We also really feel strongly about teaming up with helpers in our community. And so this podcast is really set up to help the person who's listening, whoever that is, a professional, a parent, a peer, people in our community, and also maybe people outside of our community. [00:02:22] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: But we're really focused on Kho Valley and how to help our. Special little section of the world here. Mm-hmm. Um, and so that's what this podcast is sort of setting out to do. And you're our first guest, which is really special and important to us. [00:02:38] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Honored to be the first guest. Yes. [00:02:40] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Well, because actually it's really fitting because you are who hired, you're the person who hired both Blake and I at Engage and really started our journey here in the Cano Valley. [00:02:49] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: 'cause while we were both therapists before we, we really were not, we didn't live out here yet and we weren't working here yet. And so because of you, it really established us as professionals here and beginning to build relationships. And you've been our mentor ever since then. And so we are really excited to have you. [00:03:09] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: And as I was just saying, there's so much we could talk about 'cause you have so many specialties. Um, so I just wanna kind of, maybe you can introduce yourself a little bit as to how, what, how did you get here to become the helper that you are in all the ways that you do help? [00:03:25] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. Well, thank, thank you for having me and to be your first guest and, um, let me respond to both of you. [00:03:35] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And I think what's been most rewarding is watching what you guys have done and, and you've, you've and I was even talking with some people about this last week that it's, it's rewarding to see that somebody takes something that you've been involved in and, and you make it better. And, and, and you've really continued. [00:03:55] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And I think you've built out in a way this idea of, of making mental health a community issue, um, something that you've invited people into. 'cause I think, like we know it's not going to be just the professionals that are gonna sort of solve all the, all the issues. Like we need informed parents and we need our kids well, and we need schools. [00:04:21] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Schools and other professionals. Sort of adding, you know, adding in the mix. So, um, this I see as an extension of a lot of the other things you guys are already doing. So, yeah, so you asked about me, you know, I mean, I, like you all have been a therapist for a long time, 30 years. Just crazy. I used to be the young one in the room now, the oldest one in the room. [00:04:48] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And you know, and I think through that, you know, just really have had a lot of different experiences, you know, through growing up in community mental health and going into people's homes and doing in-home family therapy and knowing very little and, you know, going from a place of really not knowing what I was doing, um, but really being surrounded by some incredible people and, and mentors and fortunate enough to continue to be encouraged to get training and educated. [00:05:22] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Um, so, you know, without going into a detail, but, you know, history and community mental health, um, working in forensic settings, which, you know, specifically like correctional facilities, but also working with people that are, you know, coming out into the community, probation and parole, um, whose lives have been really turned upside down. [00:05:44] Robert Scholz, LMFT: I mean, they oftentimes have, you know, done things that have hurt a lot of people. Um, but they themselves are then reentering the community and needing to figure out like how to reestablish and find a, find a place. And, um, so that's been, that's also been a part of my role and then spent a, a, a pretty lengthy time in, uh, university mental health, um, where I still spend time, but, you know, really loving that, um, group of that age range, that traditional kind of 18 to 22. [00:06:17] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Working with parents and those youth at a really critical developmental time. And that's really where I also got into a lot of the work in crisis management and, and knowing how to respond to students in crisis, whether it was a suicidal crisis or psychotic, you know, episode or you know, like you were talking like a, like a situation like where maybe a homicidal threat. [00:06:42] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And, and that really launched into, I launched a lot of my work into the threat world. Um, I was in university mental health at the time, um, of, of the tragic Virginia Tech situation, uh, shooting. And, um, not that we knew, we, not that we didn't need to pay attention to the issues before then, but it brought it to the surface. [00:07:05] Robert Scholz, LMFT: It brought it to the surface. And you know, that and Columbine were sort of the ones you look back historically. And that we started really trying to figure out more effective ways. To understand when someone's at risk and how to respond effectively. And so I've been on that journey really, you know, for the last, you know, better part of 20 years. [00:07:29] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Um, you know, and more recently in my, you know, private practice and consulting work, partnering with schools or workplaces to try to, you know, help create these sort of early identification systems of, you know, how do we know when someone's struggling and what are the early signs and how to effectively respond so that, you know, it doesn't end in a tragic [00:07:54] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: exactly, [00:07:54] Robert Scholz, LMFT: you know, episode, but hopefully someone's struggling and we get them help. [00:08:01] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Um, and we interrupt what, you know, could lead to something really disastrous in our communities. [00:08:07] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: So, you know. When I talk to people very, I'm not, I don't have the specialty that you have, but when I talk to people about this subject, it feels so heavy because it is, it's heavy, it's personal. Even if it, it hasn't personally affected you, somehow it feels personal, right? [00:08:25] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: If you're a parent or a school, uh, a kid, everyone's has some kind of connection to schools. Um, and for some reason, school shootings is not the only ones, right? Mm-hmm. There's been a lot of tragic shootings that have happened that are not even at a school campus, but, um, that's something that we go to every day. [00:08:42] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. Or there's loved ones at every day. And so I guess what I wanna know, I've always wondered, and I guess this is a good chance to ask you [00:08:50] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. [00:08:50] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Is how do you cope emotionally, just hearing, 'cause I imagine what you hear about on a daily basis doing this work, working with organizations or schools or families. [00:09:04] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: How do you kind of manage yourself? I, I'll, I'll give a quick story, which is, there was a local tragedy that happened and you, you and I were working together and I was pregnant, and I remember I just wanted to go in and, and help, and I didn't even have any clue how I would help, but you stopped me and I'll never forget that moment. [00:09:24] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: I have told you that, that you protected me from how that would impact me. I had no, I didn't even think about how that might impact me, and you told me that to just pause and think about that. And so I never got to, I thanked you for that and I've told you that that was very meaningful to me, but I've never asked you how do you handle it? [00:09:45] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. Um, I, I don't think there's one way I handle it and I think each situation has a different response. I have a different response to, you know, and I think some of those scenarios in our own community. Definitely have a, have a deeper impact on me. And I, and I, you know, remember, you know, and, and the post response to that, where we were, our, our company was really involved in follow up and, um, those, those nights after we would lead those support groups. [00:10:25] Robert Scholz, LMFT: I mean, I, you know, just feeling my body sort of, you know, just activated and, you know, those were nights when my sleep wasn't real good. Mm-hmm. And, you know, rec and, and so to answer your question, really needing to have my own space and people to process with that can hold that information. And I, and I do, I, I sort of feel really fortunate that I have sort of people that are on the journey with me and that I can text or call and say. [00:11:02] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Man, I gotta, I need to unload this. Like, I can't get this thing that was said outta my head. Mm-hmm. Or, or I'm having this reaction or, you know, emotional or thought reaction that is really troubling for me. And so, definitely not in any way, you know, even though like people will say something, you look so calm in the middle of it, internally, there's a lot happening. [00:11:30] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And, and, and there's also things that I choose not to go into. Mm-hmm. So some of these people think, oh, you know, you're just so comfortable going into those things. No, not always. There, there are things that I say no to, um, either because there's like a too much of a personal [00:11:48] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: mm-hmm. [00:11:48] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Connection to it, or maybe I'm, you know, both. [00:11:51] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Either because I either know people that are involved in it or it's in my community, or. Um, and that I'm needing to sort of say, you know what, I'm gonna sit on the sidelines on this one, and that's okay. Um, so, [00:12:08] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: but that's impressive. I, I love that about you. 'cause I think it's hard to know what your limits are. [00:12:13] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Mm-hmm. [00:12:14] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: But it sounds like over the years you have f you've kind of figured out at least the, um, the bumper lanes for yourself. [00:12:20] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. Yeah. And it, and it really, it's evolved over time. I would say that earlier in my career sort of had this sort of, you know, belief that, oh, you know, I can, I can handle all these just, you know, like the, you know, the more, the better. [00:12:34] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Like kind of how I was that day where I was ready to just go in. [00:12:37] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. [00:12:38] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Un unknowingly just throw myself in there. [00:12:41] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And I think like in that example, you know, again, it's that need to be able to have people around you who are looking out for the stuff you can't see. [00:12:50] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. [00:12:51] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And [00:12:52] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: relying on that [00:12:53] Robert Scholz, LMFT: and relying on that, like, again, we have, we have blinders mm-hmm. [00:12:57] Robert Scholz, LMFT: To what we do. We need, and this is why I like being, even I'm in private practice, like try to have like such a community around me that I can easily bounce stuff off of or having, people are willing to be honest with me [00:13:13] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: right [00:13:14] Robert Scholz, LMFT: about, you know, like, you seem really overwhelmed right now. Is this the best thing for you to be doing? [00:13:19] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Right. [00:13:20] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: To hold you accountable. [00:13:21] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. [00:13:22] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. I mean, I, I guess 'cause like this is such a big topic, right? And even just talking about it in how it affects you, my mind is racing, right? My mind is thinking about, um, what, what does the world, what do you think is like the world's misconception about threat and risk? [00:13:43] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Because I, I, I imagine you talk to a lot of people, you've educated us and our team and a lot of local organizations including schools. So what have you found that people, maybe it's like. Something that's very obvious to you or that you see very clearly that organizations could do a better job in paying attention to. [00:14:05] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Mm-hmm. Well, you know, I talk a lot about sort of the, like, really understanding like we, we all have our kind of a emotional reaction to events or the things we hear or concerns we, we have that oftentimes leads us down a road to what we think we should do. [00:14:24] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Mm-hmm. [00:14:24] Robert Scholz, LMFT: It's kind of like a, as therapist, we, you know, we talk about sort of that, you know, the, the gut reaction or like what we, that clinical, [00:14:33] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: like a [00:14:33] Robert Scholz, LMFT: feeling, feeling, clinical judgment kind of thing. [00:14:36] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And, and, and, and then I'm not saying that that's, some of that's not valid, but oftentimes it's super critical to have other sources of data when we're making decisions about things. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, so like for example, like if you have like a suicidal client. You know, and they make a statement that is concerning. [00:14:58] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Right. Not to, not to say it's not, um, rather than just, even though we may have fear that comes up in our body and we may wanna just like say, oh gosh, we gotta make sure they're okay. And do they need to be hospitalized? Like we have to slow down and gather more data, you know, [00:15:18] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: which is the hard part. 'cause I think we have reactions. [00:15:21] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. [00:15:21] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: But whoever this [00:15:22] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. [00:15:23] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: You know, if it's a kid, or even if it's not a kid, right. Adult. Mm-hmm. You, you have a reaction whether [00:15:28] Robert Scholz, LMFT: right, [00:15:28] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: you're scared or you're worried or it trigger something in you. Right. [00:15:31] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And that reaction could come from our own histories. It could come from previous cases that we've worked with. [00:15:39] Robert Scholz, LMFT: It could come from fears that if we're not doing the right thing, we're gonna get sued or somebody's gonna be mad at us. All that stuff just floods in it floods in. And again, it's, it. They're all, it's not that that's wrong. Those, any of those things aren't wrong. But in terms of making decisions, we need, we wanna make decisions that are based on good data, [00:16:02] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: right? [00:16:03] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And so we need a system to fall back on, to help us really gather data in a meaningful way that takes into consideration the factors that we really know are helpful at making it a better assessment of, of risk, whether it's harm to self or others, or any other mental health concern we're, we're dealing with. [00:16:28] Robert Scholz, LMFT: So I think that's always my, that's always the, if I have, if I always have a cell, it's, it's asking people, what's your system? How are you going about making decisions about these super critical cases? Mm-hmm. You know? And. What, you know, what is, what is the basis for the system that you're, you're using. [00:16:53] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And sometimes, you know, places are, you know, they're using well quantified measures and ways of interviewing and, you know, they're really coming to a conclusion based on data and systems that are shown to be valid. And then other times, unfortunately, it's like they're being driven more by fear. Yeah. Um, or by, you know, there's, there's sort of a, you know, I think of a recent case, like where, you know, it's like the kid was sort of known as a good kid and like, oh, you know, well, that he would never do that. [00:17:33] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And, you know, [00:17:35] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: so it colors the experience, [00:17:36] Robert Scholz, LMFT: right? Which again, is data, like we wanna look at, okay, what's the history we have with this kid? Right. Um, what, you know, and, and, but. Then also having to take into consideration the other data. Like, okay, they made a really specific threat towards this other kid about using a, it's new [00:17:57] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: data, [00:17:57] Robert Scholz, LMFT: about using a specific weapon that is in their house. [00:18:01] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Wow. Yeah. [00:18:03] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And [00:18:04] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: that changes it. That [00:18:05] Robert Scholz, LMFT: changes it. And, and then, oh, by the way, you know, they were also drawing pictures that were very concerning or, you know, journaling about something concerning. So this [00:18:18] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: all adds up. [00:18:19] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Oh, the friends that they used to have, they've disconnected from those friends. Um, you know, oh, they had an outburst in the cafeteria a couple weeks ago that was really outta character [00:18:33] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: for them. [00:18:33] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: I see, I see where you're going with this. It's all, it's all kind of accumulating into being higher risk, [00:18:38] Robert Scholz, LMFT: right. [00:18:38] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Because [00:18:38] Robert Scholz, LMFT: of [00:18:39] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: all the [00:18:39] Robert Scholz, LMFT: facts and, and what oftentimes happens is there's a lot of data out there. But it's not all put together. [00:18:47] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: So that's the, I mean, you taught me a lot about this subject and we use it every day in the work that we do. [00:18:55] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: And that's the thing that I think always stands out to me the most. Is that part that you said, we can't do this work in a silo. Mm-hmm. You have to communicate so that the ga, the information is all gathered and all able to be in one place, which is what I think you're talking about. Right? [00:19:10] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Exactly. [00:19:11] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: And we, I mean, we try really hard, of course, we have to usually have consent, but there's also times where you can not need consent when it comes to this level of risk. [00:19:20] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: But, you know, trying to communicate and collaborate, this feels different. It feels imperative to the safety of actually our whole community. Because I always think, you know, I have this one piece of information that by itself is not such a factor. Right? But what if this other person, what if this school counselor has information that. [00:19:42] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Ads. Like, like you were just saying, that all put all together and maybe the family has information that we haven't asked about. [00:19:50] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. [00:19:51] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: But can we put it all together to then know, is this actually worse than we thought? Mm-hmm. Or actually maybe there's protective factors that I actually don't know about. [00:20:00] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. [00:20:00] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: So thank you for teaching me that and, and I'd like to know more. I, [00:20:04] Robert Scholz, LMFT: and let me respond to something you said that I, I remember one time we were on the phone, like I was consulting with you guys on a case and the issue became clear that you were really, you were thinking ahead, not just about this clinical case, but you were thinking about the school community, right. [00:20:27] Robert Scholz, LMFT: You were thinking about the broader community. And I think what we know is that even though that client sitting in front of us, they are our primary responsibility, I think, in this work. Like one of the things that, to be effective in it. You really do have to think about sort of the ripple effect, [00:20:46] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: right? [00:20:46] Robert Scholz, LMFT: That threats or if it leads to, you know, an attack like it, it is affecting a lot of people as we see, and right. And, and so again, while we, while we can't let the fear that something horrifics gonna happen, you know, influences, you know, to the point where we're overreacting. Like, I think there is, like, I think, and I think that's what's a little bit different about like doing this, this threat assessment work is you really, you, you're thinking like it's a, it's a community intervention in a way. [00:21:22] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And, and you are having to think about these other steps and, and then like you're saying, gathering because you know that that community within which that kid or that person resides, whether it's their workplace or they have valuable information, [00:21:38] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: right? [00:21:39] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And. And sometimes [00:21:41] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: whether they know it or not, [00:21:42] Robert Scholz, LMFT: whether they know it or not, and they oftentimes don't know it. [00:21:45] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. [00:21:45] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Because when we start asking questions, they're kinda like, oh yeah, I hadn't, you know? Right. It was kind of odd. [00:21:51] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Right. [00:21:52] Robert Scholz, LMFT: But hadn't really thought about that. Um, and likewise, you know, sometimes too, you're, you're finding, you know, maybe there's been some real mistreatment of that person, you know, that the kid has been really bullied in the, in the place and school's not really aware of it. [00:22:09] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Or maybe they are aware of it, but part of like, sort of bringing to the surface some of that contextual information is that even though like we're gonna do everything we can to sort of like, help, you know, the, the, the person get those harmful thoughts out of their head and manage differently [00:22:30] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: mm-hmm. [00:22:31] Robert Scholz, LMFT: If we're not sort of making some recommendations and offering ideas to. [00:22:36] Robert Scholz, LMFT: The, the family and the communities and with which they reside. Like we're, [00:22:43] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: what are we doing? [00:22:43] Robert Scholz, LMFT: What are we doing? And we're really not gonna be as effective clinically. Yeah. And so that always, you know, and I do, you know, I, I have some workplaces and schools that are just like, it's great. We want to, we wanna know what we can do to be part of the solution. [00:22:59] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And then I have other places that are like, Nope, just wanna know that those thoughts are gone. And it's just not that simple. So the assessment ha is really far reaching and really trying to pull data. But the solution is also community is, is really, involves a lot of other people to effectively make sure this person is okay and they can continue down a path where they're okay and their community's okay. [00:23:29] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: My experience has been, I don't, I'm just curious about yours, is that most people who are in any kind of field, especially working with youth, they do really want to help. Mm-hmm. Sometimes they don't know how. Sometimes they're, like you said, fear gets in the way. You know, one of the things, another thing you taught me is that sometimes we don't ask the questions because we don't wanna hear the answer. [00:23:50] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Mm-hmm. And that really helped me in sitting with, especially with kids, sometimes you don't wanna ask if they're, they wanna kill somebody because you, you're afraid that what the answer might be. Yeah. And that's our own work [00:24:03] Robert Scholz, LMFT: mm-hmm. [00:24:03] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: As the adults. But like I said, I, I think that most of the time people want better. [00:24:09] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Nobody wants a disaster to happen. Right. But it's, it's a matter of, I think just getting educated and like you said, having a system to fall back on so things don't get dropped. Like you might just accidentally forget something very important when you're in this situation. Um. Another thing that I wanted to talk about. [00:24:27] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Wait, how are we doing with time? Okay. Another thing I wanted to talk about that I think happens a lot. Can you restart that sentence? Okay. Another thing I wanted to talk about with you is 'cause I feel very protective. You know, we, we work with a lot of kids who have come from a system, like a school system usually, or a family system. [00:24:49] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: And maybe I've become labeled as like a, you know, like a threat. And sometimes there, there is very good reason for that. Sometimes there's not also, people sometimes say things that they don't always mean. And, you know, I can say I used to work at a school and I remember that there was a, a student that was introduced to me as. [00:25:10] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: This person, we are worried they're gonna be a school shooter. And that, that's how this kid was introduced to me. And so how do I not come in with a bias, right? How do I not come in with all my, you know, bells and whistles trying to understand? I, it's like I felt like I needed to figure it out. Well long, you know, long story short is that actually this person was bullied and was mad and so there were some risk factors that I didn't know about then, but I know now. [00:25:39] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Sure. Yeah. [00:25:40] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: But then, you know, sometimes kids carry that label with them as like the bad person or someone who is ostracized and it actually sometimes makes the bullying and the mistreatment of them worse. [00:25:53] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. [00:25:53] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: And so I think that's a really tricky thing for, especially for the adults. Like, how do we pay attention and communicate that concern, but also be really mindful of not. [00:26:06] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Accidentally putting kids in these boxes that then they have to follow. We had another, um, kid that we met along the way that, that's their biggest anxiety was that they thought the whole community saw them that way. [00:26:21] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Mm-hmm. [00:26:21] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Because they made a comment that was very silly and not appropriate when they were really little. [00:26:27] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: I think it was fourth grade and it followed them into young adulthood. Yeah. [00:26:33] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Well, I sure hope I'm not, I I wouldn't be judged on the things I said when I was in fourth grade roads. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think you're speaking to like this bias that starts to develop like, and you know, particularly around, I think right. [00:26:48] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Like concerning behaviors, but you know, and it's like, I think we have to, when we hear those kind of comments, you know, this kid is a school shooter or they're nuts, or they're like, our job as professionals and as helpers and. I think is to be curious, you know, like, tell me, tell me, help me understand, you know, what that's, what, what you mean by that and what is it you're seeing and [00:27:14] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: mm-hmm. [00:27:14] Robert Scholz, LMFT: So trying to kind of take it from, like, to me that's an emotional statement. And it's fear, right? It's fear. And so like, our job is to, you know, understand like you're saying, like try to get into like understanding what do they mean, what are the things they're concerned about that lead them to this, this idea or this picture that they, they meet the profile of someone who is gonna go be a school shooter. [00:27:44] Robert Scholz, LMFT: You know, again, not to say that I'm, I'm not concerned about that. I am concerned about that, but I'm also more concerned and, and we should be probably more concerned about their risks to hurt themselves. Then it hurt other people. Now again, if they're making comments that are homicidal in nature, that are threatening, [00:28:01] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: definitely pay [00:28:02] Robert Scholz, LMFT: attention. [00:28:02] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: We, we have to pay attention. [00:28:03] Robert Scholz, LMFT: But I see oftentimes it's like, well, they dress this way, or, you know, they [00:28:09] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: listen to this [00:28:09] Robert Scholz, LMFT: music, this music, they have these dark thoughts or [00:28:12] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: video games, [00:28:14] Robert Scholz, LMFT: video games. And so, but we wanna kind of get in and understand, again, tie it to data that we know is relevant. Right. Um, that is current, you know, again, we don't wanna be judged on our worst day, but I Right. [00:28:30] Robert Scholz, LMFT: I think to your point, you know, sometimes kids will get sort of labeled on a path and, and then whether overtly or covertly people start to treat them that way. [00:28:42] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Right. Like, is it a self-fulfilling prophecy? [00:28:44] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Right. [00:28:44] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: At some point [00:28:45] Robert Scholz, LMFT: it, that's right. Yeah. So from a school perspective, I mean, this is so, you know, like this is where we have to get involved in. [00:28:53] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Do our, do our kind of social work with helping the family, you know, making sure this kid gets help. [00:29:00] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. [00:29:00] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Helping this kid get into activities where he may be seen differently, where he doesn't have all that history or baggage, you know, as adults. Like if we're, I mean, just imagine like if you in your community or some place where you show up, like you're known to be labeled in a certain negative way. [00:29:21] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Oh yeah. It can tear you down [00:29:22] Robert Scholz, LMFT: and my guess is you're not going to continue. You're, you have choice in agency to step out and find a different community. You're like, right, I'm not, I don't need to put up with that. [00:29:32] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Right. [00:29:32] Robert Scholz, LMFT: But as a kid, [00:29:32] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: but a kid [00:29:33] Robert Scholz, LMFT: is stuck. [00:29:33] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. [00:29:34] Robert Scholz, LMFT: You have no power to do that. [00:29:36] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah, that's true. [00:29:37] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And so, as you know, so sometimes like for these kids, it is having to have a change of environment. [00:29:45] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Mm-hmm. [00:29:45] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Where they get a fresh start, they, people can see them differently and have a different experience of them, but the family also having to help the kid. Like, see themselves differently. [00:29:55] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: That's true. [00:29:56] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And that's part of our work therapeutically is, is to [00:29:58] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: help the parents. [00:29:58] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Okay. You've got this identity that you've, you kind of attached to. And there's, you know, like, look, when you're, you're young, it's all about attaching to something and figuring out who you are. And, and there, like in a weird way, there may be some payoff sort of having that, that that association with being the school shooter kid, because maybe, [00:30:18] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: right. [00:30:19] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Because it's an identity, maybe it's an [00:30:20] Robert Scholz, LMFT: well, and kids may not not bully you as much because there's fear that comes with that identity. [00:30:27] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: That's true. [00:30:27] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And so, so it, [00:30:28] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: it quote unquote, it worked. It [00:30:30] Robert Scholz, LMFT: worked, [00:30:30] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: it got the kids off. [00:30:32] Robert Scholz, LMFT: But it, [00:30:32] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: but, [00:30:33] Robert Scholz, LMFT: but it continues to isolate. [00:30:34] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. [00:30:34] Robert Scholz, LMFT: The kid. And, you know, and probably does increase risk over time because, you know, we know things like isolation and, you know, just, you know, sort of feeling like an outsider and, you know. [00:30:50] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Again, that's a, that's a, that's a dangerous place to be for anyone. Mm-hmm. But particularly a vulnerable youth. [00:30:57] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Right. [00:30:57] Robert Scholz, LMFT: When they don't feel like they have any other, they're known for anything else. [00:31:02] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. It's interesting because I brought up this example from when I worked at a school and as we're sitting here talking about it, I'm thinking, I'll never know, but this person got intervention. [00:31:13] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: You know, it forced me to talk to them every day as a school counselor and check in, keep eyes. Everyone had eyes and eventually this person got a lot of support and turned out that there's just, you know, a sweet person trying to find an identity. Exactly what you just said, and I, it's just as we're sitting here talking, I'm wondering maybe that was an example of that this person, the, the path changed because of the support. [00:31:42] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Mm-hmm. [00:31:42] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: We will never know. Right. Never. If there was not that support in place, might this story have gone differently because I, I. I didn't know this person before. [00:31:52] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah, [00:31:52] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: right. I only know what my experience was after really getting to know, and probably the first time an adult sat down and wanted to just have interest in getting to know this teenager. [00:32:03] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. So it's just, yeah, I never thought about it like that. [00:32:06] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. And it's, and it's kind of going back to a comment you made a few minutes ago about like really effectively assessing like situations like this. Yeah. We're assessing risk factors, but we're also really assessing those protective factors, those things that are going to support like healthier behavior or, you know, restoration or rehabilitation and putting as much energy into those things as we are into trying to reduce the risk. [00:32:34] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Sometimes it's, it's all about, well, once the homicidal thoughts are lower, okay, we're good. [00:32:40] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Right. [00:32:41] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And, and we know, of course we know that's not true. Right. But like having to kind of ask ourselves what are we doing? So like when I'm making recommendations to like a school or workplace, like I'm really recommending like how do we build in more of those protective factors in that environment? [00:32:57] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: So it's preventative. [00:32:58] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Preventative, so it's like, it's not just, okay, they go to counseling, but let's see if we can get this kid a mentor. Right? That not their therapist, but somebody they can, that that is safe that they can go talk to. [00:33:11] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. [00:33:12] Robert Scholz, LMFT: A couple times a week, particularly coming out of a crisis, you know, who, if they're living on a campus, you know, let's, let's, you know, make sure the RA knows this person may need some extra help. [00:33:24] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Right. Um, you know, are there, there's some, you know, other kids that would be willing to help out or go to dinner with them. You know, just this, they sound simple, but again, going through like a crisis, like this is incredibly isolating. [00:33:40] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Right. [00:33:40] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And even though you may come out of the crisis. We may see that the risk has been reduced or the media concern, like there's still a lot of work on the other end of it to hope to help the person heal and actually help the community heal to where the, maybe the community starts to see them differently too, [00:33:59] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: and they hopefully see themselves differently. [00:34:01] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. [00:34:01] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Like that there's purpose and, you know, reason, what do we call it? Um, life worth living. [00:34:09] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Mm. [00:34:10] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Right. Something to look forward to in the future. [00:34:12] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. Yeah. Hope. [00:34:13] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Hope. Exactly. [00:34:15] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. [00:34:15] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Uh, okay. Well, I guess I, I mean, I have a lot of questions. You know, this is a topic that I feel really strongly about. I kind of shifting gears a little bit though, from professional Alina, and thinking more as a parent, what would you say to parents who, you know, like me, sometimes have these intrusive thoughts mm-hmm. [00:34:37] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: And worry about sending their kids to any place? That could be in danger. And by the way, just because I'm not with my kids doesn't mean there's any less or more danger. Right. There could be danger when I'm there too. Yeah. So what, what would you say to parents? How do you manage that? Also, what would you say to me? [00:34:55] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Well, I'm a, I'm a parent too. [00:34:57] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. [00:34:57] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And so just to normalize some of those fears. I mean, again, it, I think, you know, in weeks like this where there's been [00:35:08] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yes. [00:35:08] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Multiple [00:35:09] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Exactly. [00:35:09] Robert Scholz, LMFT: It's worse on making episodes across our country. I'm thinking when I'm rolling up to drop my kid off to school. Exactly. I'm feeling and thinking differently. [00:35:20] Robert Scholz, LMFT: I mean, that's just, and, and I, I don't, I don't know how to not do that. That's, that's real. And, and so, you know, on one hand it's, you know, my kids of high school age and so, you know, he's aware of what's going on in the world. And so checking in with my kid and, you know, seeing how he's doing with everything and how he's being affected. [00:35:48] Robert Scholz, LMFT: But, you know, I'm also conscious of when I drop my kid off, like, you know, are there teachers around? Is it, does it look safe? You know, does do I know if my school, kids' school has like policies and procedures about how they keep kids safe in school. [00:36:06] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. [00:36:07] Robert Scholz, LMFT: So, you know, I think from a parent perspective, you know, I, I, I try to acknowledge and, you know, like, I think it's a very healthy reaction to have some of those feelings. [00:36:20] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Also reminding myself that, you know, like the majority, overwhelming majority of the time, you know, kids are safe in school and, and so it's trying to balance that out and, and, and taking those, you know, appropriate precautions like by asking. Questions and making sure there are things in place and having conversations about, you know, like I know they've had, you know, school shooter drills, um, you know, and asking him about, you know, what, you know, what would happen if that was to happen at your school. [00:36:57] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Do you know what you would do? I think it's okay to have some of those conversations, particularly like when stuff has recently happened in their aware of [00:37:06] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: it's in the news and everything, [00:37:07] Robert Scholz, LMFT: because I think it, it sort of empowers them to know that there is a plan, like the adults in their world have thought this out. [00:37:15] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. [00:37:15] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And, and they know what they're doing. Um, [00:37:18] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: and we've seen, I think you taught me that we've seen that the research shows that when there is a plan, it does mitigate risk. Yes. Even if there's still a tragedy. [00:37:26] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. [00:37:26] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: It, it sometimes makes the tragedy a little bit. [00:37:29] Robert Scholz, LMFT: I mean, I wish, I wish we could, we could have a zero risk, you know, world in a school environment, but unfortunately we can't. [00:37:36] Robert Scholz, LMFT: But we, we can, you know. Help also our kids to recognize that when something doesn't feel right [00:37:48] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: mm-hmm. [00:37:48] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Of what they would do, who they would talk to, and to do something and to do something. It's just the whole, you know, see something, you know, say something. [00:37:56] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Right. [00:37:57] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And teaching our kids sort of that bystander, you know, intervention work that we do a lot in schools where we're trying to rave sort of the emotional awareness on a campus to, you know, when you see somebody in distress, like not just sort of assume, well I'm sure somebody else will take care of that, [00:38:17] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: right? [00:38:18] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Or if, you know, you see somebody come onto campus that's not familiar, you know, kind of looks off, doesn't look like they should be there, like [00:38:29] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: pay [00:38:29] Robert Scholz, LMFT: attention, go and talk to someone. Yeah. And, and, and I think that's, that's continues to be, you know, part of our prevention work is. Look, it's, it's not that we're, we're, we're saying that every kid now needs to assume responsibility for every of [00:38:43] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: course. [00:38:44] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Bad thing that happens. Of course [00:38:45] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: not. Yeah. [00:38:46] Robert Scholz, LMFT: On campus, during the, we [00:38:46] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: can be part of it because they're also gonna grow up and become adults. [00:38:49] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. And they're, and they're dealing with it anyway. I mean, you ask, you ask kids about, you know, what are their biggest concerns in the world? I mean, the truth is they've, most of them have been touched by whether it's a real threat on their campus. [00:39:04] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. Whether it's a bomb threat, whether it's something they've all, most of them have been affected, like this generation, like this. Just, it's kind of more than norms, sad to say, but it's, but then giving them ways to be part of the solution, I think is without, you know, making it everything. So I think as a parent, it's, you know, like not making it. [00:39:28] Robert Scholz, LMFT: The, the first discussion point every night when you come home, right. Over dinner, like, oh, so you know, were there any threatening people there today? Or do you have any bomb threats? Or, but, but, but it's, it's part of, it's part of their world. That we're checking in about and how they feel in their school environment and, [00:39:47] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: and also how we respond, right? [00:39:48] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. Because if, if we respond with, with like, what, who, what, what'd you say? Then it it, it sends, it sends them spinning, right? Yeah. But if we can respond in a calm way, which is hard, when you don't feel calm, it's really [00:40:00] Robert Scholz, LMFT: hard. [00:40:00] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: But if you start to hear suspicious things and you, you, your, you know, your spidey senses are going up. [00:40:07] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: I think it's important, and I speak, I'm saying this knowing that I, it's a work I have to do with my kids, but you know, if my daughter's starting to say something that is concerning me, I have to keep cool. Mm-hmm. Otherwise, she's gonna stop talking. [00:40:21] Robert Scholz, LMFT: That's right. [00:40:22] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Right. And I, we see that a lot with, with teens and with young adults, that they don't wanna talk to someone who's gonna then become dysregulated. [00:40:29] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Now I have to take care of you. No, this didn't work. [00:40:31] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. [00:40:32] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: So we have to stay regulated. [00:40:34] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. And I think we have to just check our own, our, our, not just our emotional, but. You know, we have our, we have our own thoughts that are coming up about situations, [00:40:44] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: and we have more information sometimes, [00:40:45] Robert Scholz, LMFT: and we have more information. [00:40:48] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And being cautious not to sort of let our, our narrative on what's happened, sort of, you know, overexposing our kids to that. We're trying to draw them out. We're trying to help them make sense. What are the, what are they hearing? And I'll ask 'em, you know, like, oh, so, you know, like this week, you know, asking, you know, my son, oh, so, you know, what's the, you know, sort of what's the, what's the vibe on campus about, you know, this, this, this thing that happened. [00:41:16] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Mm-hmm. [00:41:16] Robert Scholz, LMFT: What are people saying, you know, what do you, what do you think about this? You know, trying to get into their world and understanding what's influencing their interpretation of events [00:41:27] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Right. [00:41:27] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Is, is super critical [00:41:29] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: because they're also hearing what they're hearing from whoever it is that they're around. [00:41:33] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Oh, who they're around, and what they're watching, what they're listening to. [00:41:38] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah, [00:41:38] Robert Scholz, LMFT: they have a lot of inputs into like the interpretation and the experience they're having. [00:41:44] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. It's like the whole thing about, you know, if you six people can witness the same car accident and they can have different stories around it, right? [00:41:52] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. I think this happens a lot with crises other than car accidents, that there's different perspectives and so, [00:41:59] Robert Scholz, LMFT: oh yeah, [00:41:59] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: which one do you kind of swallow hole? Right? And sometimes kids just have what they have, whatever that, so sometimes I think talking about it allows you to have a little bit more understanding of what they're hearing. [00:42:10] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Exactly. And, and, and if it's really, really inaccurate or it's a really strong emotional thing, it's, it's being okay to, you know, like hopefully say, you know what, well, you know, the, that's, there's a lot of things out there right now about exactly this event and, you know, I think we're still, still a lot that's not known. [00:42:33] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And, you know, this is tragic and this is horrible and. You know, I think, you know, sometimes in these events we need to pause a little bit. [00:42:42] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Let's learn more, let's [00:42:43] Robert Scholz, LMFT: learn a little bit more. And, but understanding like for adults and kids alike, like we wanna, we wanna figure out what happened and why it happened right away. [00:42:53] Robert Scholz, LMFT: 'cause it, we wanna make meaning of the horrible [00:42:55] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: thing. [00:42:55] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. And, and sometimes, you know, that's accurate and sometimes it's not based because we're, we're trying to get closure on it. When some things are, and most of these most really difficult things, they're, they're pretty complex and they're not, you know, they're not one thing. [00:43:15] Narrator: You know, they're [00:43:16] Robert Scholz, LMFT: not just one, one easy answer to it. [00:43:19] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Right. The closure's not gonna be wrapped up in pretty bow. [00:43:22] Robert Scholz, LMFT: No. [00:43:22] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: It's gonna be complicated. [00:43:23] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. Yeah. [00:43:25] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: One thing I'm struggling with is, you know, I work with kids. I've worked with kids for a long time. Blake and I have been trained to speak in like kid language mm-hmm. [00:43:34] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: About things. But this is one that I think it's 'cause of my own fears and my own anxieties around it. I'm struggling with how much do I taught? I have an elementary school aged kid and I'm really struggling with, you know, what's the, what is the language, how much is too much, and what's not enough about how to explain this? [00:43:58] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Because you're right. A high school student. I think it's safe to assume with social media and everything, they know what's going on. I don't know how much my, my kid knows and I don't know, I don't wanna just introduce new problems, but I also want to be prepared. [00:44:12] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. [00:44:13] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: What would you say is like appropriate? [00:44:16] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah, that's a tough one [00:44:18] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: because it depends on the kid [00:44:19] Robert Scholz, LMFT: too, right? It depends on the kid. Yeah. It depends on their level of dis of exposure to like an event. I mean, I think, you know, it's like you come through a week like this and, and you've, you know, you've probably protected your kid in terms of not, you know, having the TV on where they were sitting, watching [00:44:40] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: the footage, [00:44:41] Robert Scholz, LMFT: the footage and whatnot. [00:44:43] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And, and maybe they know, maybe they don't know. Just, you know, and so, you know, we wanna protect kids that, and not overexpose them to things that are gonna be triggering for them and. It's gonna be really difficult to process if they have some knowledge of events. [00:44:58] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Right. [00:44:59] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Um, sort of being able to, right. [00:45:01] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Again, be, I think the first step is just being curious about what they know and what they think about things rather than feeling like we need to, you know, you know, give that big, long explanations and, but Right. But trying to find language that's developmentally appropriate for them. And, and that's, you know, again, I think it depends on the kid. [00:45:26] Robert Scholz, LMFT: I think it depends on, [00:45:28] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: yeah. [00:45:28] Robert Scholz, LMFT: You know, [00:45:29] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: but it actually, this conversation helps. Just even thinking about helping identify, like, who are the safe people on campus? Who do you, who would you go to? [00:45:37] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. [00:45:38] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: If there was something that felt off in your body, or like, how would you know in your body if there was something that made you feel unsafe? [00:45:44] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. [00:45:45] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: So those, those things I think are appropriate no matter what. 'cause. Those are skills that need to be taught. [00:45:51] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. And there's some, and there's definitely some resources out there that I'd be happy to share with you guys. Okay. In terms of putting those up there, like, you know, so what do you say to the elementary school age, the middle school, that, you know, I think American Psychological Association has put out sort of some language, some guidance around [00:46:10] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: awesome [00:46:10] Robert Scholz, LMFT: languaging that might be helpful. [00:46:13] Robert Scholz, LMFT: But again, I think it comes back to, you know, level of exposure, developmental level. [00:46:18] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Totally. Yeah. [00:46:19] Robert Scholz, LMFT: But I think as a parent, it's, I think this is where, you know, we have to, we have to be able to, you know, you come home and it's like, on one hand you're affected when you, when you have these kind of weeks, and I think particularly like as a helper or as a parent, like you, you, your, your emotional response is probably showing up. [00:46:39] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And so, like my kid, you know, he is like, notice like, what's wrong with you this week? And it's like, it's been a hard week. [00:46:45] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: It's been, it's [00:46:46] Robert Scholz, LMFT: like, [00:46:46] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: you know, on Wednesday. Blake and I thought it was Friday. Yeah. And, and we kind of laughed about it, but then I thought about it, that's why it has it Wednesday already felt like it was so long. [00:46:57] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Mm-hmm. [00:46:58] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. And so it's trying to have this congruent, making sure like we're not, you know, when we're having an emotional response, even if we're managing it well, it's showing up and like wanting to validate that to our kids. Like Yeah, I'm really just trying to sort this out. Like I, I don't have any answers. [00:47:18] Robert Scholz, LMFT: I don't [00:47:18] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. [00:47:19] Robert Scholz, LMFT: But I'm, I'm scared, I'm frustrated, I'm angry. So that, you know, we, they're, they're seeing and you know, I think a healthy [00:47:27] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: right [00:47:28] Robert Scholz, LMFT: representation of like what, going through difficult things looks like [00:47:32] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. You're modeling like your experience. [00:47:34] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Exactly. Rather than being pissed off and, you know, again, kind of going down a road that's not going to be like an extreme road that. [00:47:46] Robert Scholz, LMFT: It's not gonna be helpful for them. [00:47:47] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Right. That now they're [00:47:48] Robert Scholz, LMFT: like, we're trying to model, like, let's, we wanna think deeply about this and not be so reactive and, and yet it is affecting us. [00:47:57] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. I mean, even right now when we were talking and I said, how do you handle this? And your response was, well, it's hard for me and that made me feel better. [00:48:07] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: 'cause you're modeling to me that what my, what I experience is on some level normal. And that even you, who I, I look up to, you're my mentor in this area. You also have those feelings. Mm-hmm. So like, that's very similar to I think kids and parents. Right. They're looking to us. [00:48:22] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. [00:48:22] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: What do you do? How do you handle it? [00:48:23] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: And there's something really grounding about being able to say, I haven't figured it out yet. Mm-hmm. I'm not sure how I feel yet, but here are the things I'm doing to try to figure that out. Right. Because then you're a, you're ac you're actually showing them how they could do it. Potentially. Yeah. That's a good point. [00:48:40] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Thank you. Do we, are we okay? Should we keep going? We're in 11. How do you feel? [00:48:47] Robert Scholz, LMFT: I mean, I'm fine. Yeah. If you had other stuff you wanted to [00:48:51] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Oh, there's so much, there's so much in [00:48:54] Robert Scholz, LMFT: like this, because I feel like it's angled. [00:48:57] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: What if you bring it into the table, like the arm? [00:49:02] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. [00:49:04] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: So it's like, [00:49:08] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: it's also getting hot in here. These lights are, the thing is too, I wanna ask you about stuff, but I don't wanna get too controversial. [00:49:18] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah, no, I think we're keeping it. Yeah. And I, and I, I, I don't, I'm I not naming [00:49:23] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: exactly [00:49:24] Robert Scholz, LMFT: things because [00:49:25] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. You don't, we don't need to. [00:49:26] Robert Scholz, LMFT: No, you do. You don't want that to be, you don't want that to be one of your first, so, exactly, [00:49:32] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: exactly. [00:49:33] Robert Scholz, LMFT: So Engaged thinks this I know, [00:49:35] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: I know. That's, that's why. [00:49:36] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. [00:49:37] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Well, I guess, okay, we're still recording, right? So I can just go. [00:49:43] Robert Scholz, LMFT: We can keep going. [00:49:44] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Okay. So, um, this is like, I'm just even feeling this conversation. It feels heavy, right? There's a lot that we're talking about. I'm, I'm reliving things. I'm, I'm putting myself in people's shoes listening to this right now, and I, and I did wanna kind of shift gears to maybe some hope like takeaways in terms of like, can you give us some examples of times where you feel like it was successful, this, this plight of all of us trying to do better? [00:50:13] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, and I think it's unfortunate that we don't get to talk about the, the situations in the cases where, you know, some sort of attack is averted because professionals, community members, family members were aware. Were conscious and stepped in [00:50:33] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: mm-hmm. [00:50:34] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And helped people get the help they needed. [00:50:38] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. Let's, [00:50:38] Robert Scholz, LMFT: let's give that so space and those and, and there are more, there are, you know, multiple times over many more of those cases than there are of, of tragedies. And so we, again, we have to remember that. But of course those are not in the media. Those are not things that [00:50:57] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: we don't know about them. [00:50:58] Robert Scholz, LMFT: You don't know about them. So, you know, the over, you know, again, it's in the cases I work with, it's, it's because someone has paid attention and, and, and some, and those stories oftentimes are, you know, they have really good outcomes. You know, where a kid who may kid or person in a workplace wasn't getting the appropriate help and. [00:51:26] Robert Scholz, LMFT: You know, the, they didn't kick the kid outta school, obviously, you know, safety was assessed and determined that they were okay to stay or in the workplace. And, you know, the trajectory of that person's life has changed and, and [00:51:43] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: the lives around them [00:51:44] Robert Scholz, LMFT: probably it arrives around them are changed. So, so I mean, there's a lot of reason for hope in terms of like engaging in a really, you know, robust, you know, you know, program of threat assessment and response. [00:52:00] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Um, you know, we're not just trying to catch bad actors. That's not, that's not the point of, you know, threat assessment or any kind of managing crisis. It's to, you know, hopefully, you know, stop a path that someone is on, but then restore or help create them and put them on a different path, right? Like, that's the, that's the full circle. [00:52:23] Robert Scholz, LMFT: That we're ideally trained in. And that's how we're trained in this field is it's not enough just to stop the bad thing from happening. It's to really, really try to promote wellbeing. And, and we do see that in lots of cases. And you know, and we do, and I, you know, I have these stories, you know, where all, you know, many years later I'll get [00:52:44] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: really [00:52:45] Robert Scholz, LMFT: somebody I assessed will literally a, a family or someone will reach out to me and just say, you know, like, I know we weren't real nice to you in the assessment and you know, but we were really scared and yeah, pissed off. [00:52:58] Robert Scholz, LMFT: But you know what, you treated us like a human in that assessment and you know, we were concerned, you know, you were looking to get us help school, get us kicked, kicked out. And, and actually it was because of your work and your recommendations. That kind of put us on the right path. So those stories do happen out there and. [00:53:22] Robert Scholz, LMFT: So again, I think for a parent or you know, professional, you know, I think it's remembering that the potential for these, these good outcomes to happen are, are, are also, are much higher. And, and it, and it does take a little more work to do it well. And I think, again, that's sometimes like from a professional standpoint, it's like, okay, you know, we need to, this is, there's, there's gonna be some steps here and there's gonna be some work here, but remembering what the end result could look like and how it could look different to me is the rewarding part of what I do when I'm involved in these kind of cases. [00:54:05] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah, same. I mean, I think it, it's, it is more work, but also aren't we always learning, you know? Yeah. Like there's, there's always room to learn. There's always room to improve and yeah, we've also had experiences like that where families come back and say. You know, things are different mm-hmm. Because of the intervention, which it's why we keep doing the work we do. [00:54:26] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Right. [00:54:27] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. [00:54:27] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: That's, it's worth it. [00:54:28] Robert Scholz, LMFT: That's right. It's [00:54:29] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: totally worth it. Even if one person's life is improved. [00:54:32] Robert Scholz, LMFT: That's right. [00:54:33] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: So what I, I, I know I said that I was gonna be kind of, I was gonna wrap up, but I actually have a question for you that came up as you were just talking. What's been your, what's your favorite part of this work that you do? [00:54:44] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Hmm. Hmm. That's, I don't think I've ever been asked that. [00:54:49] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: I can guess what your least favorite part is. [00:54:52] Robert Scholz, LMFT: You know, I, I think it's, I mean, I'll tell you that when things are clicking in the way that I think ideally they're, they're drawn up to be. Mm-hmm. It's that ability to, at the conclusion of an assessment, to sit and work with a team of people, whether that's the parents or treatment providers or a school, and really have a productive conversation about a, a case. [00:55:19] Robert Scholz, LMFT: To really develop a plan of action. Like that's rewarding. I mean, I think it's, it's also, I mean, I also, I love the part of the, part of the process of threat assessment is it, it is, you're kind of like a detective. [00:55:32] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Mm-hmm. [00:55:32] Robert Scholz, LMFT: You're really trying to continue to ask your question questions of what else, where else do I need to be looking for Your, your, your mining data. [00:55:43] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And, you know, and fortunately, I mean, you, we have guides that like, are, you know, really help us to figure out where do we need to look for data? Who do we need, who else do we need to talk to? And that, you know, that those moments when you get either that point of data that kind of supports what you're thinking, that it's like, oh, okay, so now I've got the, I've got multiple data sources that support this is what's going on. [00:56:11] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Mm-hmm. [00:56:12] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Or the flip side is sometimes contradictions, you get a contradictory thing. Oh, thank goodness I asked that question, or I sought out that potentially, you know, conflicting piece of data and, and it's just a reminder of, again, you know, I mean the human experience is really complex and [00:56:32] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Sure. [00:56:33] Robert Scholz, LMFT: You know, sometimes people wanna think it's just this, well this leads to this list, leads to this sort of thing about anyone who goes out and commits an act of violence. [00:56:41] Robert Scholz, LMFT: What I can tell you is that it is so, like these, while there, there are similar themes in these stories. There, there's a lot of different ways that people get to that place. Sure. You know, and, and we, you know, we know that in general from, you know, all mental health concerns, but these, these two, you know, like no one wakes up one day and just is like, oh, you know what? [00:57:04] Robert Scholz, LMFT: I always wanna go hurt a bunch of people. There's a lot that leads to that place and, and I wanna uncover, I want to get. I wanna get that story. [00:57:15] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Mm-hmm. [00:57:15] Robert Scholz, LMFT: And I think that's like, as part of the assessment, if I, if I think of like, like when I'm doing the assessment, it's also when the person across from me who's maybe made a really scary comment or, you know, some of their behavior, it's that point when they can see that I see them as a human and that, that I'm not there to like, see them get in trouble. [00:57:40] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Or like, there's a, there's a, there's an energy that changes in the conversation where they start to feel [00:57:47] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: safe, [00:57:47] Robert Scholz, LMFT: safe. And then I'm actually interested in understanding their perspective. Like, that's, that's a, that's a, that's a moment that, that always feels really good as, as, as an assessment person. [00:58:01] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Well, I think that's something you do really well is that you're, 'cause your, your demeanor, you're calm and I think your background and motivational interviewing is probably helping you in that, in just making people not feel judged. [00:58:13] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: And then you're more, I, I would be more likely to open up to someone if I didn't feel that they were judging me, that maybe they saw me for who I was, that I'm struggling to. Yeah. You know? So I'm just thinking also now, okay, someone's listening to this and they're thinking, wow, Robert sounds like an amazing resource for my community and my school, my organization. [00:58:33] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: What's next? How can somebody get a hold of you and like have more of a detailed conversation with you, or maybe even get your support? [00:58:41] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah. Well, I mean, absolutely. And whether it's me or other professionals that work in my field, I mean, again, if you're, if you're seen or you know, there's things that you're concerned about, reach out to, reach out to whoever. [00:58:55] Robert Scholz, LMFT: But you know, there definitely are, are people in the sort of the threat management world. So, I mean, we gonna drop my info. Do you want me to say it or, okay. So you want me, you [00:59:06] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: want me to ask it again? [00:59:07] Robert Scholz, LMFT: So you want me give like phone number or whatever you want you [00:59:09] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: comfortable with? I, I, we can. [00:59:12] Robert Scholz, LMFT: That's what I was thinking. [00:59:15] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That's, [00:59:19] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: and also [00:59:19] Robert Scholz, LMFT: that's what it, yeah. Okay. [00:59:21] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Yeah. Whatever you, [00:59:22] Narrator: I'm on LinkedIn or, [00:59:24] Robert Scholz, LMFT: yeah. Okay. [00:59:26] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: I was just thinking as you were talking, I was thinking like, yeah, maybe someone's listening that would, that would want to, [00:59:32] Robert Scholz, LMFT: yeah. Okay. That's fine. [00:59:35] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Has it been okay this whole time? Like this, [00:59:38] Robert Scholz, LMFT: and this is better. [00:59:39] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Okay. You're [00:59:40] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: better. Okay. So I'm gonna say that again. [00:59:44] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Okay. [00:59:45] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: That's for once in my life. I, okay. So as we're talking and just listening to you, I would say [00:59:52] Robert Scholz, LMFT: yeah. [00:59:55] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Also, after we do this, I forgot to like even introduce anything. [01:00:02] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Okay. Okay. Yeah. [01:00:05] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Okay. Because I didn't say like, I, I forgot. I just, that didn't go to, okay. [01:00:10] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: So. Okay, so as we're talking about all this, and I'm sitting here and you know, I always enjoy talking to you. I always enjoy learning from you, and I'm imagining that there's probably, maybe there's someone listening that finds this conversation helpful. At least I hope so. And these kinds of concerns happen every day, all the time, and everywhere. [01:00:31] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: So if someone who's listening wants to get a hold of you and get more information about how to support their community, how do they go about doing it? I know we're gonna put it in our show notes, but maybe you can just speak a [01:00:43] Robert Scholz, LMFT: little [01:00:43] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: bit [01:00:43] Robert Scholz, LMFT: about that. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so for me, directly probably it's, it's connecting with me on my website, which is really simple. [01:00:51] Robert Scholz, LMFT: It's robert therapy.com, and there's, my contact information is listed in there. And, you know, the other thing is I, I do some consulting and work with a, with a larger national threat agency. Company called D Prep Safety, and it's deep dre safety.com. And, and I think that's, I, I'm really, that's one of the things is I work with a team of people. [01:01:16] Robert Scholz, LMFT: I'm not working in isolation here. And so I have my community members here, but I have people that are experts, you know, from the, all over [01:01:24] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: the [01:01:24] Robert Scholz, LMFT: fields of law enforcement, you know, from higher ed, from workplace safety, work with people, work with a team of people that come from a lot of different perspectives. [01:01:33] Robert Scholz, LMFT: So it's, you know, I'm a mentally health, mental health trained, but have a lot of different perspectives. Um, another organization that is, is helpful, um, is the Association of Threat Assessment Professionals referred to as atap, which is a national, kind of one of the leading organizations. So there, there are lots of resources out there. [01:01:55] Robert Scholz, LMFT: I'm happy to be like a, I always talk about is, you know, sometimes I'm the first stop. You're [01:02:01] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: our go-to, [01:02:01] Robert Scholz, LMFT: and I'm not always the right person. And so my, my job is to help people get where they need to get to. And so, you know, there's just as many times that I'm referring people to someone else and, and maybe I'm not even the right kind of person to be talking with. [01:02:17] Robert Scholz, LMFT: If there's like an immediate threats, like you need to be talking to law enforcement, [01:02:20] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: right? [01:02:20] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Not me. So, yeah. So yeah. Happy to be a resource to, to anyone. [01:02:26] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: Well, we appreciate you as a resource. Like you mentioned. We, you know, I'm very grateful that we can call you and consult and trust that you do have that whole network that's also behind you, which, um, it makes a really big difference when you're dealing with something so important. [01:02:42] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: So thank you for that work and thank you for being here and talking to us and sharing some of your knowledge and experience with our community. [01:02:50] Robert Scholz, LMFT: Yeah, and thankful to you, Adelina and Blake, like for doing this and really trying to reach out to the community. [01:02:59] Adelina Brisbois, LMFT: We're excited. Thanks for being part of it.