Raising Confident Kids: Why Holding the Line Is Love

Okay, okay. You ready? Yeah, let's do it. Okay. Awesome. So good morning, Lori. Thank you for coming and being with us Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm always excited to chat with you. So just for our guests I want to introduce you Lori Allen marriage and family therapist licensed marriage and family therapist and You own and run village wellness correct here in Westlake Village, right? Thousand Oaks kind of like right on the border between Thousand Oaks and Westlake Yeah, well, I I knew about you before I knew you and I had heard about village wellness only good things and specifically your name always would come up when talking about

Referrals for someone who is a new parent or just in general parenting Yeah, and then I met you and I realized actually you have so many specialties. That's just one of them But that's that's what I knew about you before I knew you So I think that's probably what we're gonna end up talking about today But would you mind just sharing a little bit with our listeners a little bit more about you and the other things that you do Which is so many so many things. Yes, I'd be happy to so thank you for having me And I think I should say the same thing I heard like before I knew you I felt like I knew you

So I was like really happy when I met you and I was like, oh, she's really wonderful So I'm really happy to be here, but I think you are right I have a lot of specialties and part of that is because I think when I started I started doing what I was naturally Trained and like educated to do and that was like really work with kids I was trained as an art therapist as well and really quickly. I realized that working with kids Was really working with parents particularly if you were working with young kids And as I became a parent myself it kind of morphed into the hours that I needed to work I'm some of it was like totally selfish the hours that I needed to work, but also like

Where was I making the biggest change? In the quickest amount of time I think that's what parents always ask when they come in is how long is this gonna take like how many sessions I see somebody get better And because of that I was like well This is really gonna, you know, this is gonna morph and work with with parents more than working with kids And then it kind of continued to morph as I became a parent myself. I really started Being passionate about working with the perinatal population pregnant and postpartum women and then it kind of morphed again Into when I had my third I had Really really bad postpartum depression and anxiety and I didn't really recognize it in myself

And so then I really specialized more in perinatal mental health and people who were parenting young kids and people who were parenting from an anxious perspective mostly moms who Probably would self-diagnose themselves as like warriors or anxious anxious women, right? anxious kids who just grew up to become parents and parented from that perspective and so all of those kind of specialties and all of those are places where I work from now and Then I became There was too much to do right and so I started hiring people and then village wellness kind of grew out of a personal practice Yeah, because there's such a need out here and I you know

We came to this area to Kanaeho Valley when we were our careers were already beginning to be established and You know part of why we wanted to do this podcast is to highlight all these awesome resources that are in our community and truly my hope is that people will be listening and Hear about you or the work that you do in your office and be more likely to seek it out Yeah, because I think especially parents there's kind of a stigma like well I don't I don't want to feel like I'm a bad parent or I did something wrong Or maybe I do feel like I'm a bad parent and I do feel like I did something wrong

So I don't want someone to tell me that yeah, or I don't want that to be true or hear it from someone else Because people get a lot of opinions. I learned this I used to run parenting groups before I was a parent and I went in the training. They told us Parenting is the most personal thing that you'll ever do so you have to be really careful about how you talk to parents and I remember hearing that and taking it in and thinking like Okay, got it check ten four and then I became a parent or it just be no before I was a parent I was pregnant and I was like, oh the opinions start way before you even have the child like the whole world decides

To tell you what you should do or not do and so now I understand it on a whole different level that There's so much guilt and shame and you know spiraling that happens Like you just said from the parents perspective and how does that influence the kids and we were just talking off off camera about how Depends on how you're raised to like we're like I love how you said it anxious kids that grew up and became parents Yes, and there's a reason that sometimes kids are anxious. There's really good reasons There's really silly reasons sometimes, but there's reasons nonetheless So anyway, you also have a little bit of a background or not a little bit

I think a pretty significant background in working with domestic violence, right sexual assault Yeah, when I first started that's where I did like my traineeship my internship was at then It was called the coalition to end family violence now. It's the coalition for family harmony, but that's how I started was really Working in their DV program. I led batters treatment program group So I like ended up when I left there. I was running the rape crisis program so a huge background in trauma as well as Where I ended up now. Yeah, so thank you for sharing that because when I to be honest with you when I learned about that I

Took I already respected you an immense amount And then I learned about all that work that you've done in the past and I thought wow She's even cooler than I know she was because that's such important work Yeah, and that I can't imagine that it doesn't influence the way you work with all the families that you work with but having this breadth of knowledge and experience and wisdom probably that comes with that so Anyway, there's a lot that we could probably talk about today. I think we kind of talked about Focusing on parenting because that seems to be Honestly a big topic. I think in our worlds. We're part of a couple groups together

Yeah, and that tends to be a big topic. So What would you say, you know, there's probably a lot of advice you could give to parents from all your experience But what would you say are like the top two Messages that if there's parents listening right now Of young kids to teenagers, what would you want them to know? I think about Such a good question and I think I was really thinking about it yesterday of like, okay What are the things that I really want to hit and I think Kind of the most important thing is that confidence starts like in your pregnancy and when you have a newborn baby That's really raising confident kids can start from that period of time and raising kids who are resilient and who have grit

And who express confidence really comes from a parent not from a kid And it comes from a parent allowing Their kids to explore their natural environment I work with a lot of pregnant and postpartum moms and one of the things that they'll say is I don't want to put the baby down Or I don't want to leave them. What if they get hurt? What if they roll and they're like head hits a baseboard or something terrible happens? And it's like that's probably gonna happen. And so so much of it is really helping Parents tolerate uncomfortable feelings so that their kids also learn So I think that's the kind of number one piece of it

And I think the second piece of it is like well, you know We live in a world where we're taught to do like all the right things right to like be the perfect parent And like what happens is kind of overwhelming. It's so overwhelming Yeah, what if you've done that and your kids still struggles? Yeah, like what do you do then? Yes, I think that that is also a really important conversation of it doesn't mean that you messed up Doesn't mean that like you're a terrible parent or that you're flawed But then you've got to learn to kind of sit in it and not solve it and like still just so hard, right? Yes, I think that's really hard honestly for me, but also for the parents I work with. Yeah

Do you think that comes back though to like this shame and guilt like oh, I did this What did I do wrong? What what why is my kid like this? You know and you want to blame yourself Yeah, I think we live in a society where we want things fixed fast Yeah, and as a parent you think you have the ability to be the fixer all the time But why why do we get this like cuz it's yeah when you we're sitting here talking about it It's not the little silly that we would think we had that much control. Yeah, but I do think that that's the Kind of standard. Yes. So why great question What's your theory? I'm trying to think about my theory

I think I have a lot of theories on it And I think one is the culture that we live in right everything is really really fast We don't like to wait anymore, right? We don't right right patients Even if I think back to like I was born in 1980, right? If I think about when I was growing up you had to wait like you had to wait a line You had to wait a week for a show to be the next episode Yes, or if you missed it like if you didn't get home right at 3 30 for a tailspin You missed tail Right I do too, but you just missed it right you just didn't get to see it And then you had to deal with whatever uncomfortable feelings that brought up because you didn't get to see it

We do not live like that anymore But do you remember it being that uncomfortable cuz I just remember being like oh, that's a bummer But I would move on a point Yeah used to those used to it how life was and now life is like if you know you have to wait in a line Right like I think about like Disneyland or an amusement. I knew you were gonna bring it right well Think about it if you have to wait in a line You have parents who pull out their phone and you're like playing games on your phone right even great ones like heads up or like Something that's really interactive or you have a bag of tricks to like distract your child from waiting

Yeah, but even Disneyland has changed like you don't wait in lines Now that's like all on the app right and you have to kind of like plan Yes, and I was lamenting this with my friend the other day because we used to go to Disneyland as in high school We used to go all the time I grew up in Orange County and she hasn't been since then and I was like oh be careful because when you go It's gonna be different than what you remember it like she's like what do you mean you just like wait in line And that's the fun part and I said well no get ready because you don't wait in line even for food No, you have to mobile order and it just so it's just a different decreases

The tolerance to have to be able to wait Yeah, cuz that was my favorite part is that I would go with my friends and we would talk we'd have the best conversations in line and I even say this to my family and they don't get it like my eight-year-old daughter's like I'm not following you Like why why would you want to wait in line? And so you're anyway, you you struck a nerve here talking about And the waiting but I think that that's it right if you really want a pinpoint like well Why are we trying to fix? I think there is some shame I did something wrong right you're inundated with all this information of how you're supposed to be air-quoted supposed to be

And we've also removed this ability to like be patient and to like learn to sit in something Uncomfortable yeah, and we want to fix it right now and the fix feels like it's at your fingertips Cuz so many things are yes fingertips That was gonna be my theory is that there's all these parenting books and theories and like even before I became a parent I felt like I was like this expert because I had worked with so many kids You know and then my actual kids came along and they just teach you What it is to not know anything? Yes, even though if you know something about it Yes, you just don't know about that exact situation, which is really humbling and I think it's

Deceiving to people to think like well, but you could know you should know you probably just didn't do your homework Should have just done a better job. Yes, if only you read more books or listen to more podcast You would be a better parent. Yeah, so that that was gonna be my thought about it but I do think also there's a lot of judgment and and I don't know was but there was probably always judgment like Different it feels like we're raising. I mean like a more fearful generation of people I think that tied to starting to kind of shift a little bit but we're scared of the world right we're Teaching people to really be in a bubble like so cautious. Yeah all the time

You don't want your kid to walk right by themselves, right? They've got to be in a spot where you can see them, which I understand at certain ages But there also comes a certain point in time where Allowing them to explore their environment and to have experiences and frankly get in trouble a little bit Isn't bad, right? It teaches you how to walk through the world and then You as a parent, right? You're the soft place to land and you can create consequences and discipline and all the things that you might Need to do around it when they've made a mistake. Yeah But they have to make them Exactly and I'm glad you brought that up because I think a lot of times when I talk to parents about

You know having grace and being able to see their child for being a human being who's not perfect because no one is I think it accidentally the message accidentally gets across of Just don't discipline like let them be let let them like just You know figure this out on their own and I don't know about your you but I Don't think that at all. I actually think consequences and discipline. It's it's important It's part of the learning and it's like a required part of the Let them be and let them figure it out It won't that part won't work if you don't also have the kind of the bookend, right? Yes But it's interesting because I don't think parents always hear that second part, you know

Like I talked to a friend the other day that was like, you know, okay, I can hear you I can hear you. I'll I'll be kind. I'll have grace for my child who did something that I'm not approving of But my husband's having a really hard time with the fact that we're not going to discipline Like there's no consequence and I was like, no, no, no. There must be a consequence. Yeah So both and right? Yes, you can you can have compassion for your child making an error And you can have a consequence but it doesn't have to be like a Like a threat or like you're bad. So you get a punishment Right, it can be you can maybe talk more about that like what what language would you say parents could use for example?

For it to not feel like it's like all bad, you know, we're all good because I think that's where we get stuck, too You know like gentle parenting. What is a big phase or fit big fad that I think gets misconstrued Mm-hmm. Because people think it's like too soft and too kind. So I think that there's several things I think one sometimes we live in a place where we like don't expect our kids to make mistakes And so we don't think about What are some possible consequences that like I might put into play That actually like makes sense kind of with the air-quoted crime, right? It's not just like you can't have dessert tonight

Right. That's gotta be related for it to be a teaching moment. Yes. And so one I think that parents, you know As you're raising kids and in certain ages I think you can kind of anticipate Some of the things that they might get into And so you've got to think about, you know, whether you're parenting with a partner or you're parenting on your own Like what are things that I might be able to use Or work with that create some consequence that could be related So I think that's kind of part of it is don't wait until you're in it to think about it To I think if you did wait to think about it until you're in it

You can like say, you know what? I'm not really sure you can say to your child. I'm not really sure What we do, right? I I didn't think about this give me a minute to think about like What needs to happen or how we can kind of get through this together? Yeah, and I think that's great I think like calmer quieter closer is what I tell a lot of people that I work with That if you wider calmer quieter closer easy to remember Yes, and particularly right like I have a 13 year old and a 12 year old now and they are hard Right, they're very different than raising a like school aged elementary school aged kid

Um, and if you scream at them, which sometimes we scream in our house They stop listening 100% are they scream back and they're you know, and now you're not listening right? We're all blown It's gone. Yeah, but if we're calmer if we're quieter if we're closer They react differently and then we have the ability to have a conversation about like, okay Well, what do you think should happen? Yeah because this happened, right? Well because they feel safer then They're not under the under the wire and like how in trouble am I going to get right and that shame thing? Yeah disappears Because we're still in connection

Yeah, so any time I talk to parents whether I'm doing a talk on a panel in person on the phone I always suggest to bring the kid in and ask the kid what they think but It's interesting because I do feel like I get a lot of eye rolls. Oh, yeah, because Well, I understand why because I think when you're frustrated and you're elevated you you don't want your your child's opinion You are you want to be in charge? I think there's something about feeling out of control as a parent that is part of this problem that feels triggering So what do you say to people when when they're like, I don't if my kid knew what to do they would do what they would do it

I think I frame it first with like you're probably going to roll your eyes at me This is going to feel uncomfortable because it's not something that you're used to Why don't you try it and come back and let's have a conversation and see if it worked or like it You got a little bit closer to your desired result Um, but I think so much of what I do and kind of who I work with because I'm really working with a parent at this point I'm not really working with kids with that much frequency Is being able to say to them your ability to tolerate doing something different Doing something that is naturally uncomfortable for you

Is going to teach your kids how to handle being uncomfortable. Right, right? That's it. If you can't do it They're not going to expect them to be able to do it. Right and I also say sometimes You know your kid's not expecting your response to be like this So it will catch their attention if you respond differently than you normally do Which I think that helps I think that has I've seen some people be more willing to try it because that Makes sense. Like well, you always scream about this, but this time you don't Actually, it really terrifies kids because they're like what is going on. Yeah, it totally throws them

Yeah, why didn't you yell it means so now you have their attention now Take advantage of the fact that you have their attention because you won't have it for long, right? Like small, you know small bites Yeah, yeah and coming back. I really think that the being able to say, you know what? I'm not sure yet Makes teaches kids it kind of models for them. It's okay not to have the answers in the moment It's okay to say I need a minute Exactly regulate yourself and figure out like how to sit in it together and get through it together Right and then might they say that to a friend one day when their friend is coming at them

They can say, oh, I don't know yet. Let me have a minute and also back to what we were talking about is just having space Creating a tiny bit of space Can make a really big difference um, and I do think so I Right in this moment. I'm also not seeing kids regularly, but I have for my whole career and Without fail, I've had kids say to me without their parents in the room That that's actually what feels like love is when their parents are able to like Hold consequences and those kids who really feel that their parents don't love them Like I've had you know in our iop We work with kids who are pretty depressed pretty anxious really struggling

And I've had multiple kids say to me My parents don't love me and I know about I'm sure of a hundred percent And I'm like, what are you talking about? They're here. You're here You're at an iop that your parents have committed a lot to to you, you know And they say because I go out and I don't I you know, I don't come back at curfew and they don't say anything So obviously they don't care about me Meanwhile, if the parent was in the room and heard that they would probably like Jump out of their seat because they think they're being kind or you know flexible But the message that gets to the kid is

It doesn't matter. Yeah, and I think those parents, you know, beyond kind and flexible They're trying to decrease the likelihood that like there's a fight right the conflict of verse You're totally trying to yes conflict of verse is like the exact thing And I think that happens with young kids too, right? Totally don't want to make them uncomfortable go back to the disneyland line, right? It's we don't want to make people our children specifically feel uncomfortable We want to give them like the best of everything and so but it doesn't serve them in the end Have you ever read or heard about this book called um, how to raise an adult?

Yes, and the blessing of a skin. Yes. I think yeah, both of those are books that are fantastic Yeah, I read those years ago. Oh, yeah, but I think they apply exactly right Yes still like maybe what a decade ago. They were no blessing of a skin knee is much older Yeah, I think both I have no idea. I think, you know, maybe you have a fact checker Our good fact. Well, I think blessing of a skin is older because I think it was around when I was in grad school I mean, yes, but I think that um Anyway, it doesn't matter. They're both really good in the same concept But maybe kind of different age ranges how to raise an adult

I think is more for like maybe the teenage parent or the parent of a teenager and then um blessing of a skin knees and and blessing of a skinny has a little bit of like, um A little bit of religious undertone. I don't remember honestly. I'm terrible at remembering like what books What is one's which one? Yeah, because it's all blended all blurred, but I um, I think they both have this message That we're saying right now, which is, you know, your kids have to have enough Trouble to learn from it. Yes, and that we have to tolerate that Yes, and if you even remove trouble and just replace it with experiences

Yeah, right your kids need to have enough experiences to Face all emotions both the really really good ones and the really hard Right. I hear a lot of times too from parents of like I was so mad or I was so sad right something bad happened But I didn't cry in front of them because I didn't want to make them uncomfortable And I'm like, please make them uncomfortable right because then the message is we don't cry Or we're not on motion. Yeah, we don't have any uncomfortable emotions ever Right, so then what happens when your kid has emotions because they will right then they get the message that I have to hold this together and because it's wrong. Yeah, because nobody's ever modeled for them that

Emotions are a normal part of being a human. So, okay, this brings up something for me And I I want to know your thoughts which is um, how I was trained Is to really think about kids as equals and respectful as human beings like respect them and respect their experience Again, parents have a hard time with that sometimes because some cultures Including how I was raised is that no you respect your elders You know respecting kids just is really opposite of what a lot of people think They're supposed to respect me. I'm the adult. I'm the authority What I've seen is that it goes a long way for kids to feel respected

Which means like asking them what do you think they should do or even just how we talk to them Just like if you talk to me in a disrespectful way, I would not respect you as much I just wouldn't want to talk to you kindly And why is it different for kids? You know, why do we expect kids to be, you know, less than us So what are your thoughts about that? I think it's both. I think that you are a role A parent is an authority in their home, right? Yeah, and they're looking to us. Yes to make sure they're safe You set a tone Right like the world that your Internal world right how you live does become your child's external world, right that they live in

They don't have agency. They don't get choices. They're just put into the you know the situations and the positions that you put So really good point, right? Like they yeah, they can't decide like I don't want to live here anymore Like they do not get that choice at your mercy, right? Like if I worked in a job that I didn't like I could be like I want to change this Like they don't get to do that their kids They do what we tell them to do and what wherever we put them, right? So I think that there's innately a little bit of both, right like my my kids I think kids in general should see their parents as a place of like a touchstone, right?

Yeah, like you have this under control. Yes And they should also be treated with respect. So I think that there's a little bit of both I don't actually ever think anything's one way or the other. Yeah, I love how you put it That's a that's I think that's an easier way to Like conceptualize it and maybe digest it. Yeah that it's both. Yeah, it's both It's kind of like if you think about it at a job, right? If your boss is like, I don't know do whatever you want What do you think about everything that would not feel containing? No, but if you're if your boss is like, okay This is what we're going to do and within that

How would you like to do it? That would feel like you have some autonomy you matter But also there's a direction and we're going that direction, right? So you said the word container, right? It's I kind of know where my boundaries are of how I can function in the system And the system mutually respects me and my Contribution my opinions my feelings and vice versa So what would you say when parents are like on different pages? Oh my god, this happens all the time. I know in my own home, too My husband is not a therapist. He is like the total opposite of it And he's always, you know saying to me, okay, what would you do and when I say it? He's like, I'm not doing that

That is not gonna work for me, right And so I think that this is something that happens like all the time. Yeah, and how my husband is a therapist And we would agree on a lot of things, but not everything. No, so we're just different people You know exactly And I think this happens in front of our kids too, right? Like one of us will do something and the other one will be like, I do not agree with you Um, and you know, those are kind of offline Conversations, right of like, all right, let dad and I talk and let's have this conversation But I think that if you sometimes you have to be like a united front

But I also think that you can say I don't necessarily Yeah, and show that we can be partners and work through this and not have to be exactly the same Disagree on it. Right. But you know, at least in our house. I think what is Really the foundation is that we have the basics that we do agree on like Both what's best for our kids? Maybe we might think what's different, you know What's best is different in different situations, but general things like safety, health, obviously Yes Emotional well-being. Yes. Yeah, but how to get there I think is Hard is yeah, it's rocky. It's hard sometimes. I often I mean, I like some of these like little words

But like you can have conversation without conflict and I think we immediately think that if we don't agree That means that there is a fight. Yeah, and I don't think it has to be that way That we can just have differing opinions we can respect each other through the differing opinions Um, and we can have a conversation about like, okay. Well, what are we going to do right now? Um, even if we don't agree and that's not a fight It doesn't mean that you know all differences of opinion is not an argument. Yeah, it doesn't have to end with like, um hostility or Like mean jabs or anything like that It's just accountability. I think for like your own opinion and it's like, okay great and respecting someone else's

yeah, and I actually have said and done myself like I think kids seeing some level of like that healthy conflict where It's modeled as a conversation and it's respectful can really be because first of all Kids are always listening and always watching always For better or worse. Agreed. Um, but if they can happen upon watching a conflict that is You know mature and and respectful enough. They could actually get a lot of skill from that I've seen this happen with my daughter where she Does that with me and I'm like, where did this come from? Like, how did you learn to? Speak to me this way like where she doesn't agree with me, but she doesn't in a kind of an adult way

But I I think it's because she sees us do it. Yes, and because I don't know where else she would learn that from I don't think it's from shows I don't think it's from her friends I mean, I think you bring up a really good point too because what I see I have kids in like youth sports And so much of this I think is modeled like oh my god Youth sports youth sports, right? We could like go on a whole tangent here But I'm gonna go on a mini one. Okay, but I think often it is that right? There is conflict all the time I know walking into that game. You're going to get a call that you don't like and like these adult right the adult coaches

They're normally adult men and kind of the worlds that I'm in They get mad right right and they're talking disrespectfully sometimes to coach to other coaches They're side shattering right or they're asking an umpire, you know a referee to do something different And then the kids all respond to that And so I think it's kind of this like microcosm of like a really great place to kind of Just recognize how much kids model And I think the same is true at home. You just get to see it When you're on like in a sport with kids. I think you're so oh that's I have so much to say about that. I do too It's so hard because I

I'm not perfect nobody is no, but I do see When I'm around kids, I do see it in the lens of like Everything is sort of on some level a teachable moment. Yes And it's okay to be upset. It's okay to disagree with the ref. But I think it's just Really disappointing sometimes like how adults show up or don't show up. I would say yeah I think it's we see like all these parenting moments. I think it goes with the conflict too, right this kind of How are we talking to our kids? How are we treating them? What are they witnessing? How are we responding after a game, right? I bring that up because I really think that it's right after a two hour chunk of time

You can reflect back. You can say what what happened, right? And we've seen all these opportunities for like how our parents talking to their kids, right? When they strike out when something bad happens or when something great happens what happens when there's a hard call It's literally all these things we're talking about. It's like I can anticipate this is a really Good time for me to talk to my kid or to have these conversations And I think one of the ways of learning right if we kind of get to a place of okay Well, what's a takeaway? How do I practice this in real life? Life's gonna happen. Yeah. What's the takeaway?

Right. Can you anticipate moments where there might be some conflict even driving on the road? These are them. Yeah, right. These are those anticipated moments, which I think is probably why I bring it up Yeah, and then you can have the chance I love what you're what you're bringing up that you can have the chance later to reflect on it You know either directly with your child depending on how intense it was or around them so that they can think about what they felt Yes, you know, you could say I really didn't or or you can highlight the stuff you did like Yeah, like I really like the same how when you know that kid struck out you guys all cheered him on that was

That's good sport sportsmanship. Right, you know, so you're highlighting the parts that Um you want to see more of yeah Okay, I have another question for you What are your thoughts about parents getting involved when there's a conflict between kids? And then parents like, you know a mom calling another mom or dad calling another mom dad and like trying to Help I wish I had a really good answer. I don't know that I do Um, I can you I will actually use something that happened from like my own life Um, again, I think I've said this like so many times. I think it's both I think there are times when parents need to be involved and I think there are times when you can teach your child to

Respond in an appropriate way What I actually think is the best is when you involve your child in the call Um that it doesn't necessarily need to be like a you know mom to mom behind the scene You know, let's pull the strings and see what happens conversation but more of a Um Can we do this together? Right, can we bring the kids in a room because I think sometimes kids don't know how to handle conflict Their children they are learning. They don't know what to say. Their feelings got hurt. They're egocentric, right? Meaning that they're coming just thinking about themselves in the situation and like dealing with whatever's in front of them

Yeah, it's just like we all do by the way. Yeah, not a kid. Even all of us We're just always doing what is our best, you know What we have access to in that moment 100 but I think as grown-ups, right? We also we've learned enough We've had enough experiences to like move past our stuff Yeah place right and recognize. Okay. Maybe let me how do I put you know See what somebody else's perspective is and I don't think kids know And lately how to do that they have and that's the point So you're saying involve your child in having a conversation with the other child and maybe having the parents there to support it 100

percent Right, so that if the other parent, you know, also knows their child of like, okay Well, this is how they felt they can maybe encourage them to share that Yeah, that's how I do like school things to write if there's like conflicts with teachers or that's what I was struggling in a classroom It's I don't want to do the heavy lifting for you. You do it and I'll back you up. That's it Yeah, I used to work at a school. I used to be a school counselor and that was the biggest lesson I learned at that school campus was it was not beneficial for me to get involved as their counselor But the kids earned so much respect going back to that point

Kids earned so much more respect when they're in in the front saying this is what I need or this is what I feel Whatever and they learn skills along the way But if they know you're there to back them up I think it really again elevates the confidence and also knows they know that Okay, if there's a point where you don't know what to say, I'm here. Yep But but also I'm not talking for you Um, but that's really hard I think that's really hard. It's really a lot of people to execute Yes, it's hard for me to execute too, right of like when it's your own kid I feel you I want to jump in too and like save I want to save them

Right. I want to make things easier and I really have to remind myself often that like childhood is like learning how to learn Right in school is that environment too Particularly, I think in like middle school elementary school, right This is literally where you get to learn how to learn and if I jump in and I you know, do your homework for you Or I remove all of these obstacles You're not learning how to do this on your own and then when it like air-coated matters, right? You can't do it. Well, that's why I like how to raise an adult, right? Because that's what she talks about Yes, Julie Lightcott-Hams is the

Author and memory. Thanks. I don't remember a lot of things, but I remember that And she's she was an admissions director or she was on the admissions team at stanford And she talks about how these These kids would come in with like perfect scores great, you know These stanford applicants that got in but they'd get there And they were didn't know how to get to a classroom. They didn't know forget about laundry They didn't even know how to like You know navigate navigate like simple life things. Yeah, like we use a map to get to a class and Or ask for help or order or ask or order food. She actually yeah, that's one of the examples

And so she realized there's this whole She said I think all these parents that got their kids into stanford Thought that they were they did a good thing But then they got here and then now we have to basically teach them how to be an adult Right, even though they're supposed to already come to us this way Yes, you know, there's always lessons to learn but always basics, right? We're missing and she Does a really good job. I think of making it so that it's helpful, but that's what that's what reminded me That's why I brought it up earlier because of what you just said. Yeah doing things for your kids making it easier

But then in the end when you're not around you know Then you're not gonna be able to do it Yeah, and I think that sometimes people are really fearful like a lot of maybe women who come to me are coming One either they don't want to screw up their kid, right? They recognize. Okay. I'm super anxious I've lived this way like my whole life and I do not want my kid to be like this and somebody needs to teach Me how to we need to stop this cycle right right now, right? This is how I was parented and this is how my parent was parented And I don't want my kid to grow up Living in this kind of with this discomfort that they don't know what to do with

Let's not repeat this right and so I think this is it right is the way you just described Like all these parents got their kids into stanford, right? That's not my child worked really hard and got themselves into stanford This is somehow I scaffolded and did all this work to make sure that they They got here and now they don't know what to do with it when they're there And I think that this work starts like Young or as soon as you Right sometimes you don't even know you don't realize what perspective what has happened to you But when you do know you it's hard to unsee And so I think that that is like a really really important part of this is like, okay

Well now what? How do we when we run into something that's uncomfortable instead of just jumping in and fixing it or doing it for a kid? Right if you're ordering something. Yeah, and they're like, I don't I don't want to talk You don't have to jump in right away and do it for them You can be like That's uncomfortable as a grown-up to do But that is where that skill kind of takes place And I I think I don't know I went on a tangent a little bit And answering your question. No, I think that that's Really at the end of the day. It's all the exact same thing, which is How do you get through your own discomfort and the thing that like you want to move this faster?

Forward faster. How do you pause as an adult as a parent to to think and reflect and be your best self And let your kid experience like all the things in life Not just get them to a place where we've you know, now you're successful you're into Stanford. Yeah, you grew up As if that's the finish line. Yeah. Yeah. Now what now this what do we do now? So I know you know about our we have reflective parenting as part of our programs But also we have mindful beginnings, which is for babies parents of babies And this is exactly what we cover and it you know, it takes 10 weeks It talk goes over attachment theory

But what we've touched on today that I think comes up a lot in those 10 week series is is that Sometimes we don't even realize if you don't take the time to think about How you interpreted life as a child in your attachment as a kid You really there's a lot of unconscious repeating. Yes, and I think what you said is very key There are some people that are able to identify like I don't want this to be repeated like for example, I have a fear of dogs More all animals, but really dogs. I'm scared of dogs. So when I go to someone's house I always think I I'm prepared. I'm wondering like that. I don't know if I don't know their house

Yeah, do they have a dog if they have a dog? What am I going to do? How am I going to enter? I'm going to act cool. I'm going to pretend like I'm fine, but I'm actually really worried And when I had and I've done a lot of work around that But when I had my daughter and first time I had her in my hands going into a new house. I was like, oh my gosh Can we not repeat this? Yes Like I really don't want her to have the trouble I've had over the years and I again worked on it and I Can now be around dogs and regulate my body, but I'm not so comfortable. Yeah And so Yeah, I just remembered thinking and I had that wherewithal

But not until it was the moment where I'm walking into a new house. I didn't think about that preemptively So I handed her to Blake and I was like you walk in with her because you're not afraid and I don't want her to pick up on The fact that I am even if I act like I'm okay I'm not right, you know and so I think anyway, I got on a tangent myself, but It's about that's a great example of exactly what it is It's I didn't even anticipate that I was going to walk into the situation and when I was here You did have enough wherewithal to be like, oh, I am not the right person to do this in the moment and like tag

You're it dad, right? Yeah, and you know, that's kind of huge Yes, but she still got a little bit of it. Of course, you know, she's she's you're a tuning fork Exactly, so it's not as severe as mine. I had a situation that I think triggered mine you know when I was little but Um It's so fascinating that she's still Still got the message that like let's be a little weary or maybe she just also independently of me You know is not as comfortable around dogs because she does like other animals But still doesn't want to be touched by them. So that's and that's like how I feel Yeah, like I love animals. I just don't want them to be in my space. Yep. I get it

So I think some of this is also I mean this kind of goes together a little bit It's a little bit of a tangent to some of this goes along with education Right, like some people who are like we live here, right? It's an affluent community It's people who have access to a pretty good life for the majority of people here, right? It's safe And sometimes number one. Yeah, right sometimes with that. I think affluence education You get this abundance of information too. Yeah, and it's like a privilege, right to be able to Like, okay, let me think about am I going to walk into a dog today? Right like that is a privilege to be able to do

And that's generally where we see Higher levels of mood disorder right higher levels of anxiety disorders and things like that is Because that tolerance is different and that privilege looks a little bit different in terms of what do you have to walk into and what do you have to do Yeah, I feel like it's kind of like the hierarchy of needs, right? Yes. Yeah Depends what you're competing about your energy is competing for Yeah, I think um, you're right. I often feel very grateful Actually that I have this training and reflective parenting Yeah, because I think that's I tell Blake this all the time

Some things that are maybe obvious to me. I understand they're not obvious to other people But the only reason they're obvious to me is because of my education And my experience and sitting with kids and parents and you know hearing people say Wow, you know, like I I ran a reflective parenting group with um for many years, but one group in particular there was a dad and You know a persian dad actually and I have a persian dad And I was shocked that there would be a persian man that would come to a parenting group But I just one already was like, wow, I'm impressed by you and I'm not trying to be disparaging

I actually think that um It showed it showed me that I was wrong in my assumptions that it's not all people are the same, you know And a lot of people want to learn Anyway, one of the things that we do in reflective parenting is we ask like when you were a child How were you disciplined or how how did you experience fun? You know just basic questions. What did your house look like? What did your room look like to to remind people? And he got emotional And was crying, which again, I was like, what's going on? And he said not only has no one ever asked me that I've never thought about that and the fact that you're asking me that brings up so many memories

That are very hard for me to think about And so then I felt, you know kind of bad Because this is my caretaker. I was like, oh no, I upset you but What ended up happening is he remembered a lot of things about himself That he said I'm really grateful that these things happened to me as a kid and it built who I am But when I come And I come out my kids with that expectation that they already learned that lesson I realize now that I had to learn that lesson myself and now I can remember That I didn't always have that lesson and so Then he next week came and said, you know, I was really able to approach my kids in a different way

Because I remembered being that age. You made me remember What it was like to be that age and how my parents handled it And there's things about that that he wanted to do differently But there's things about that that he wanted to do exactly the same, right? So I think Anyway, I I'm fascinated by this topic. I actually think this is why I'm a therapist I think the reason I came into this field is because on some level I think I understood this from a young age Yeah, but I didn't know I understood it. I didn't have words. I didn't have concepts. So that's why when I Learned about this. I'm like, oh

Why doesn't everyone just want to just dig deeper? Well, I think it is like our natural thing, right? Like this is probably what we think about when we're becoming parents and kind of an unconscious way Um, and I think making you know, mindful beginnings that the program that you offer Asking people to step into that and really think about it like Yeah, this is how we raise confident resilient, right kids with grit and kids who can function in the world and be successful adults Which is like really what we're trying to do like I'm really trying to raise These small humans in my house to be able to live independently without me. Yeah. Yeah, which is really hard to navigate the world

Yeah But I don't remember what happened something happened the other day where my eight-year-old helped my two-year-old And I was like, oh, okay. You guys don't even need me anymore. I just I'll exit the picture And there is something beautiful in that right? I see my my now 13 year old He had childhood aproxia of speech. This is going to be a real tangent But he had childhood aproxia of speech He didn't actually have like words that most people could understand until he was in kindergarten Okay, it's a very long time, right? He was you could probably understand like 40 percent of what he said in kindergarten, which meant that it's hard to make friends, right?

Hard to express what he was feeling you can't other than to maybe me and dad and grandparents, right people who really spent a long time with him But like somebody knew would have no idea, right which meant That he was perceived as this very shy kid Right the kid who was like kind of a little bit more comfortable being by himself And really that's because that was just what his environment was more comfortable, right? It forced me to do a lot of work on myself of being like, all right now me who's actually an introvert I have got to learn how to like Talk to people. I don't know so that my kid has a good life

But I bring that up because I think that like we all perceived him to be one way And what we started doing for him pretty early on was like making him Figure out how to navigate the world that was around him, right? And now he's like 13 and we've always thought like okay, he's like going to be so scared to do all these things and He like is super independent because he's always done the hard thing Because he's been pushed to do it and I don't think we realized what we were doing when we were doing it It was just like, okay Well, if this is going to be his problem like he has to be able to figure this out

I can't do all the work for him all the time past a certain kind of age and stage And I think that's kind of the hard work in there It is hard being able to recognize and like well, what does this lead to if you can recognize it? What does it give you? But I think it comes back to you being as the parent being able to get through your own stuff To think what does my child need and do that even if it made you uncomfortable and I'm still surprised by him Right. I'm still surprised by some of the things like he's you know, proud parent moment He does the announcements over the loud speaker in middle school, right?

For a kid that couldn't speak right at five years old Where people understood him and it mean like we were like Is that a good idea, buddy? And he's doing he's doing it really well and people that don't know Would never know. Yeah, and this is that thing of like well We color our kids and how they live their life with our lens And if you can take that off every so often it's yeah kids can like really thrive That's a really great example Like when I hear that story, I'm really proud of your son. Yeah, and not even knowing him I'm like cheering him on and like that is like the best story And I'm really proud of you

And your partner for being able to do that part so long ago because that established the pattern to then get him to Have the ability to think like oh, I can do this. Yeah, and I think it goes to like, okay. Well Why do I do this now? I think like I said I was doing it just from like my training But when you can reflect back and see like oh this actually kind of worked Then you can kind of help kind of propel that forward differently And that's kind of a beautiful gift of of being in this profession. I think In using ourself What do you think about sharing that with your kids like when you're when it's in the moment?

It's hard Do you think that's too much information to say like, you know Like I didn't get this opportunity and I want to give it to you. Do you feel like that puts a burden on the kids? Great question I don't think they understand it until like they're adults and sitting at a table with somebody having a conversation like this of like How did my parent my childhood shape who I am now? Yeah I hope that they do it Yeah, because I just wonder because I maybe it depends on the kid Maybe maybe some kids care more and are more interested by that and some would be like, okay Maybe what would that do with me? I don't know. It's certainly my childhood shaped who I became now

So I would assume that you know having those conversations with them now would help shape who they become Well, okay. This is the example that came to my mind. That's what made me ask you I always wanted to go to summer camp that I was never allowed to go to summer camp My parents were like, I don't even know what what summer camp. We're not no They're both immigrants. I don't think that summer camp was like an idea, but I really wanted to go I would watch bug juice on the disney channel. I mean, I was like was really Yeah, maybe because I couldn't go. Yeah, I really want whatever but um really young really at a really young age

I put my daughter in summer camp. It was day camp. It wasn't like a sleepover thing And she had you know like a hard time at first but then like loved it so much And I was talking to her about it the other day and She argued with me. She's like, I didn't start that young. I was older and I'm like, no, you you were you were because I remember I had to sign you up and But she has a different memory of it and then she said Why did you do that? Why did you sign me up when I was so young? And to be honest with you, I thought about it. I was like, uh, well Your friend like well one of her friends was doing it, but also I told her about me

Yeah, you know, I really wanted to go and I never was allowed to go and I wanted whatever and She has brought that up a few times to me like, oh, yeah, you didn't get to so that's why you wanted to send me So I'm curious. That's why I wanted to ask my thoughts about it because I'm like, oh Did I burden her with that information or was that information that could help her be like? Oh, my mom's trying to Do something like different for me. I don't know. I guess that's why I said depends on the kid Probably. I think it depends on the kid. I think what you also Just shared is that you shared with your kids something about your own experience that stuck with you

Right and I think, you know, if we go back to the conversation about mutual respect and treating kids respectfully That's like if I was having a conversation with you I would share with you my experience and what I like wished I could have done or what I did Right to maybe help me do it differently or better or just to create connection and to create relationship Right, like I want I want my kids to know me as not just a parent but as a person as they age Yeah, and I think that yeah tributes to it and I and I think what comes up for me is also I want My kids to know that I have intention behind what I do

I think that's become we've talked about this. Yeah, actually recently I think that's become important to me. Yeah, is that I don't just do things willy-nilly I think as a professional as a person as a friend As a mom I want to like have thought about it. Yes And that's maybe an important message and maybe why I shared that now that we're sitting here Yes, like reflecting. Yeah, because I tension such a good word Yeah, like why because you know, that's another thing parents say well because I said so And why why do I have to go to bed at this time because I said so and I just don't think that works

It does not I certainly have said it many times. I know not do anything. It's like closing the door. What's the word? There's a word for it There's a word like you're just shutting down the conversation without having Any further I mean closing the door is exactly what it is. You're just saying like this is an Stonewalling. Yes. There you go. We're the conversation is done now because I said so And I don't really care what you have to say right and sometimes at the end of the day Like you're just going to bed now because it is bedtime or we've talked about this for half an hour So it's done now, but I think that when we can slow down especially the kids we see like in our programs

Right, like they're coming to us because they're struggling, right? And so I think when parents can slow down enough to say to their kids Well, you can't do that because you know, we had this experience last week where you were in danger And so now we have to put this in place to make sure you're not in danger Feels very different than like feeling like it's just a punishment or you're bad. And so now you have this consequence Um, I think context does matter In that way. So maybe that comes back to yeah attention and Modeling maybe it's also modeling like this is how I thought this through right like when you show your work in the math class

This is how I thought this is how I got there. Yeah, maybe the answer was wrong But I got this is how I got there. This is it and that is actually what I love about your IOP program too Is that it kind of works in a parallel process way, right of like you're helping the parents and the kids at the exact same time And I think that's kind of at the crux of what we're saying here the whole conversation which is The burden can't only be on one party in the family, right? You guys are equal In the fact that you're all part of this and you're all part of this system that works together It's kind of like at village wellness

That is how we function too, right? We have providers with all these different specialties intentionally So we can treat members of one system from a collaborative framework Where everybody the providers talk to each other, right? Everybody kind of works together because Not the same goal at the end of yep And I think kind of what you're saying is that that if you have those conversations, right if you're Moving through these hard things holding consequences having like conversation even at the end of the day You're still got to go to bed right right right that at least there's some kind of talking through it

Even if there's not an understanding at the end or an agreement at the end just You talked about it Yeah, I think it comes back to containment too like when when Multiple providers are saying a similar message. I think that feels really containing to people. Yes Because it feels like okay, there's something I don't know. There's something consistent About you know what this therapist is saying what that therapist is saying and I think that's why we like to work together And why honestly why we refer to people that we know their work not just know them as people because Our work that we're doing has to sort of match because otherwise it's so confusing for

For parents like if you know if you're seeing a parent and and I'm seeing the kid and I we have different messages And we're not talking. Yeah, then it's it's going to be confusing. Yes, but if we're talking By the way, we might have the same message. We might just be saying it differently correct And so then we have found that to be super helpful And yeah, you're right about you know teaching parents the same things you're teaching kids A lot of times parents for all reasons Maybe we can't come to family therapy or the parent groups or whatever and it's just a kid You see the kids kind of dwindle and say like well, what about my parents? What are they doing?

And we've had it where parents then start to show up And you see the kid just thrive Because they can feel like okay, you do your thing. I'll do mine and I'll meet you in the middle, right? and It kind of makes sense like if you know if I had to pull all the weight and The rest of my family wasn't doing it you get tired. Well, you're resentful I think you'd get that anyway too a little bit right of like well If you have a kid who's struggling right and maybe they're making some poor decisions that lead to some poor behavior Like kind of the whole system suffers, right? If you your kid can't go out on a Friday night with their friends anymore

And they have to stay in so do you? Right and so I think you know when we work from that collaborative framework and Your kid understands and you understand that like we're doing this as a team And we're trying to get to a similar place Right, like I don't want to stay home with you either I want to go and do my thing also And so if we work together on this then maybe we accomplish the same goal Exactly you get this privilege reinstated and so do I right There's more buy-in. That's it. Basically. Yeah from all parties. Yeah that way Yeah, and it leads to the same thing right having conversation having connection

Talking it through providing opportunity. It's kind of all the same thing with just Different names different names and different developmental stages Right, it looks different at different ages. Well, that's so obviously there's many things I love and respect about you and every time we talk I feel like we're just aligned in and without even having known each other for all these years I feel like we were working parallel in this community Now we know each other and I feel like I see you actually all the time different circles now But that's something that I think is a really cool synergy is that both of our centers

Work with kids and at their parents different ages because it's true across the age span It's very different so working with a five-year-old is not the same as working with a 15-year-old I mean there's different needs and working with a new parent right if you go even further Right working with a pregnant parent. Oh, exactly brand new parent is so different than working with Parent of a teenager. Yes, and you yeah or an adult frankly. Yeah, that's that's right parenting young adults Yeah, and I think the other thing that I just wanted to mention too that I think is really neat is that You guys take some insurance you do which I think is really

Key and has been really important to Blake and I as well that are I our IOP takes insurance so that families can have access It's a really it's a long game. It's really that's a whole other podcast to talk about Different day how to how this is all navigated But the reason I bring it up is because when we have families that we work with and you know after care is really important So yes, we're an intensive outpatient program and we're there for a bit But the point is to set people up for success for afterwards And so I have such confidence and I feel so good knowing your philosophy and how you work and your background

Even just this conversation to know that um when we send families over they're getting this like a consistent message And that can feel really good because sometimes people feel comfortable coming to our office They don't want to leave. Yeah, and we don't want to enable them having to stay We what we're like, you don't need us go, but when they when they have a great place to continue Um, it feels very different So I just wanted to mention that and thank you and just highlight another way that I think We're not just aligned as individuals and you know business people but also, you know as practitioners

too So I don't I think there's so much we could talk about but I think all day sitting here Yeah, we really could and we will we'll see each other at all the meetings we have. Um But for today, I think maybe this might be a good place to wrap up unless there's anything else for you You want to add? Other than thank you for having me Thank you so much for coming and chatting with me and the only thing that we're missing is a cup of coffee